Power ranking:
1. President Donald J. Trump
2. Chris Wallace

Xi Jinping and the collapse of the American Empire

I haven't watched it (and I'm not going to) but I mum watched some of it and apparently Trump's idea of a "debate" is letting his opponent get about 20 words in before interrupting

Saw the snippet of Trump link condemn white supremacists, which apparently they're celebrating. "Proud Boys, stand by and stand back" is not condemnation, it's an order.

Edit: for anyone who doesn't know, the "Proud Boys" are a white supremacist, neo-fascistic street gang who engage in political violence.

I saw bits and pieces. With Trump it’s the same old aggressive and rude bullshit and I feel like Biden didn’t say anything worth while either 🤷🏼‍♀️

Ah yes, the white supremacist group that has a half black, half Cuban American man as their chairman. The white supremacist group that goes around hitting elderly black seniors from behind with bricks. Oh...wait... The white supremacist group that is targeting and killing black people and others "of color" en masse!! Oh...wait... The white supremacist group that denounces racism. The white supremacist group that allows all men, regardless of color. The white supremacist group that is constantly online talking about how much they hate black people, saying being black is bad, all black people are racist and should be ashamed of themselves. Oh...wait... THAT white supremacist group?!

If they are a "neo-fascistic street gang who engage in political violence" group, then do tell how you classify ACTUAL groups who behave like this like Antifa and BLM?

I watched it more and oml when the moderator has to say "covid is a serious issue so lets try to take it seriously." You know that you're watching two toddlers screeching at each other. It also drove me crazy how much Trump interrupted the moderator and tried to debate the moderator. He lost me with 'Pocahontas' comment.
Granted Bidan's stuttering didn't help his case and idk he just seemed confused and tired.

Like Trump is immature as hell and can't conduct himself right. Bidan is just...idk he had some points I agreed with but his presentation was lackluster.

This wasn't a debate, it was more like a circus imo.

Interesting how Biden went from one vote to being in the lead... but no other fans have joined the spot, commented, or voted on other picks... *narrows eyes*

@zanhar1 if you watch again you will notice that Biden was the one who threw the first "punch". Biden was the first to interrupt all Trump did was fight back. he was not going to let Biden do to him what Biden did to Paul Ryan in 2012.

Re the Proud Boys:
You can still be a white supremacist group while having some tokenistic non-white members. The latter does not preclude the former. Arguing otherwise is pretty much a rehash of the "Lol I'm not racist, I have a black friend" line. Also, Tarrio is actually great for the Proud Boys: with a non-white man at the helm, nobody can claim that the Proud Boys are racist, coz look their leader isn’t even white! Members don't care that he isn't white because he's out there doing their work for them; anyone who fights for ethno-nationalism is an ally to ethno-nationalists. It lets them dodge accusations of racism, while continuing to push unabatedly for racist policies.

The Proud Boys are one of the more modern offshoots of "sanitised" white supremacy; they’re culturally competent and deliberately couch their views in terms that give them plausible deniability. “Western chauvinism” is much easier to defend in an argument than white supremacy. Their stated mission is to “defend” Western culture – it’s a dog whistle, and what they define as the essential and superior elements of “Western culture” are white. It’s basically a rebranding and continuation of the "white genocide conspiracy" and how they are supposedly fighting against it. Another great example is Identity Evropa, a long established European-based group that has openly declared that it is link as "conservatism" in the US and has a very methodical strategy to link carefully chosen language.

Also, while Proud Boys officially reject that they are a "racist" group most of their leaders are heavily involved in openly racist politics and/or are members of other openly racist groups, and attend and participate in openly racist events. One of their former members, Jason Kessler, helped organise the Charlottesville rally, which brought together Klansmen, antisemites, neo-nazis, and militias. Their founder sees white men and Western culture as “under siege” and link “I love being white and I think it's something to be very proud of. I don't want our culture diluted. We need to close the borders now and let everyone assimilate to a Western, white, English-speaking way of life."

They’re also extremely pro-violence. Please watch link of Gavin McInnes, their founder, speaking on his own show. Note:
- “If you’re wearing a MAGA hat, and some guy comes up with a slightly punk demeanour… choke him. Trust your instincts. Don’t listen to what he has to say. Choke him”.
- “We will kill you… we will assassinate you”.
- “Can you call for violence generally? Coz I am”
- “We need more violence from the Trump people. Trump supporters, choke a motherfucker. Choke a bitch. Choke a trannie. Get your fingers around the windpipe”
“I want violence, I want punching in the face. I’m disappointed in Trump supporters for not punching enough”
“Get a fucking gun. Get ready to blow someone’s fucking head off”
“And he goes, ‘you’re not advocating violence are you?’ And I go ‘I absolutely am’”
- “This is a fucking war”

Last year, two Proud Boys members were sentenced to four years in prison for attempted gang assault, attempted assault and other charges for an incident where they attacked suspected leftists. They’ve also tried to intimidate any critics into submission: videographer Vic Berger made fun of them online, so they link. A leaked Proud Boys document called for members to find the addresses of their opponents and those of their relatives and "SHOW THEM THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES!!!". In 2019, a report called Violent Extremism in Colorado: a Reference Guide for Law Enforcement from the Colorado Department of Public Safety was released, which discussed the Proud Boys as a threat under "White Supremacist Extremism".

Also, their paramilitary wing is called the “Fraternal Order of the Alt-Knight” lol. Super non-fascist! Such non-fascist! Wow how could anyone think these people are neo-fascists!

Further reading:
- A link from a University of Nevada academic: “Swiping Right: The Allure of Hyper Masculinity and Cryptofascism for Men Who Join the Proud Boys”
- link “Sanitizing White Nationalism - The Invention of the Term “Alt-Right”
- A link from an academic journal: “The [un]surprising alt-right”

@mushpork

Exactly classic toddler stuff; "b-but he started it!" I don't care who started it, he didn't have to do it back. Also he did it significantly more afterwards. It was just very off putting from both candidates because neither of them could conduct themselves like adults...

Also that doesn't justify constantly cutting the moderator off and trying to debate the moderator. It is literally the moderator's job to cut the candidates off when they go over their time. That's literally not up for debate but Trump kept pushing anyways.

So maybe the first time Trump was just fighting back. But after a point fighting back becomes over kill. It's like an older brother hitting his younger brother and the younger brother hitting back and then landing a second hit and shoving the older brother down and punching his sister for trying to break up the fight.

And having all three of them talking over each other made it hard for me to really take anything away from the debate at all because so many people kept talking at once.

Also just remembered the Proud Boys' "uniform" of a Fred Perry black polo shirt. Fred Perry was a brand adopted by skinheads and the British National Front in the 1970s (although ofc the brand has distanced itself from that association). The colour could also be connected to "blackshirts", a term which has referred to fascists from the early 20th century due to their habit of wearing them - seen in the Daily Mail's infamous 1934 headline "Hurrah for the Blackshirts!", which started a long campaign by the editor in support of the British Union of Fascists.

Could be a coincidence. It's not in itself enough to suggest anything. But when placed alongside all the other things I mentioned, it's a bit of a yikes.

Uh-oh, somebody better inform The Goths. X'D

*Has been informed*

I don't wanna press this, but like... link just popped up

Civil war brewing inside Proud Boys as the top leader, Kyle Chapman, says he’s done pretending he isn’t a white nationalist.

“Due to the recent failure of Proud Boy Chairman Enrique Tarrio to conduct himself with honor and courage on the battlefield, it has been decided that I Kyle Chapman reassume my post as President of Proud Boys effective immediately,” Chapman wrote. “We will no longer cuck to the left by appointing token negroes as our leaders. We will no longer allow homosexuals or other ‘undesirables’ into our ranks. We will confront the Zionist criminals who wish to destroy our civilization.”

He also made clear that he believed talk of defending “Western Civilization” was really just a racist dog whistle all along.

“We recognize that the West was built by the White Race alone and we owe nothing to any other race,” he wrote.


😬

Still have yet to hear you say anything about Antifa or BLM, so I'm gonna check myself back out of this conversation.

How exactly are they relevant to the question of "are the Proud Boys white supremacists"? That's textbook whataboutism lol

lol First of all, nobody asked the question "are the Proud Boys white supremacists". You conveniently offered up that information yourself in a completely unrelated poll. I asked you a question in case you conveniently forgot:

If they are a "neo-fascistic street gang who engage in political violence" group, then do tell how you classify ACTUAL groups who behave like this like Antifa and BLM?

But alas, we all know how you feel about marxism, so we have our answer. Antifa is just an idea, and BLM has been "hijacked" by white supremacists, right?

Dude you're almost gaslighting here, like read our first comments again lol. "A completely unrelated poll"? Trump's failure to condemn the Proud Boys (and the fact that that's problematic, considering that they're white supremacists) was THE most-reported aspect of Presidential Debate #1. I literally just relayed that info in a matter-of-fact way. You then took issue with the "white supremacist" label and tried to refute it. "Nobody asked the question 'are the Proud Boys white supremacists'" uhhh your first comment on here is what made it a contentious question.

"But what about Antifa and BLM" is a type of logical fallacy (called "tu quoque") and I'm not going to humour it. It attempts to discredit your opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting their argument. Antifa and BLM are irrelevant to the issue of the Proud Boys and whether your president should have condemned them.

Btw this is quite literally the fallacy that Trump has been so criticised for. In fact there's an entire section in the link article dedicated to Donald Trump lmao. One commentator notes that it's "always been a favourite weapon of illiberal regimes" like the USSR, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

To you and Trump both: is it actually so hard to condemn and distance yourself from extremists on your own side? Like imagine if a Muslim kept avoiding a question about "are jihadis bad" in favour of going "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE JEWISH / IRISH / LEFT-WING TERRORISTS??"

Unless you're suggesting that the Proud Boys are justified in their beliefs / actions "because Antifa"?

When did we talk about Marxism lmao