Well I think Ambrose did it
He's a dhampir so he would know how to use a stake and have the strength for it.

The queen would have obviously trusted him and he would be one of the few people allowed to see the queen.

He took Rose to his aunts maybe so he could make sure no one was in her room so her stake could be stolen.

And last of all right before Lissa's dads files were stolen Ambrose was away from the court. The queen gave him the letter about Lissa's sibling so he would have been one of the only people to know about it too. Who knows maybe he works for Victor :S

Wow, you guys have been thinking thoroughly haven't you? haha XD

I have many, many different possibilities and theories. But I'm only stating a few.

I agree that it could have been Danielle, but I don't think she'd appear nervous because she actually is. Normally, if a person commits a crime and is trying to act casual, they wouldn't act casual. Why? Because it's obvious they're trying to cover it up. She's probably actually showing she's nervous to throw the others off....just something I've been thinking.

I don't think it was Ambrose. I understand how suspicions could raise though. Since he had something with the queen, he probably had access to her room- maybe or maybe not. Scenario: I'm sure that after Rose talked to him, he found the queen and talked to her....they probably had a fight, yadda yadda and he left. He could've come back how many days later to talk or apologize- whatever. Maybe he was the one who found her dead with the note. Maybe he had gotten a note that explained everything. His face in the- I'm going to say it again, sorry- pre-trial seemed to show how upset he'd been....

Could it be Adrian? He seemed relatively cool at the pre-trial (I forgot the name-.-). But he had no true motive to kill her. If you think he could've killed her for the throne, you're wrong. Adrian wouldn't have been next in line because he's part of the same family. Plus, he wouldn't do that to his family member...or would he? loll

I thought about Victor being the one who did it, but why would he risk his freedom? It doesn't make sense to me\:

Could it have been.....
Any of the above??
Mikhail- jelous and vengeful? (I'm just saying)
Rhonda (Ambrose's mother)- for reasons you can come up with yourself, haha (my theory is really long)

Or......

Are we missing someone in the big picture?

....Wow, that was alot of typing hahaha. Let me know what you think!! We can work together to find this out(:

Mode: Hmmm. As in: Thinking Mode XD

What about that person that Lissas dad gave money to? That lady... /sigh, i dunno

Response to ThunderLove,

At first I thought it was Viktor also but then I figured that he wouldn't be that stupid to lose his freedom and his half brother, or would he? Naw.

And I don't think it was Ambrose either because he said he had to run an errand before the attack and didn't come back till the hearing (don't know if that's good or bad). what I think the erran was was to get the records on Lissa's father and give them to the queen. how else could she of known?

Then again (hate to admit this) I was also starting to question Dimitri (I know I'm a bad person) because as we all know Richelle Mead likes to add a twist to her books. Reason it might be Dimitri is because he wasn't in jail anymore and what if he did still have some strigoi in him? but then again he had guardians around him and why would they even let an ex-strigoi near the queen? So I think Dimitri is outta the equation now. YAY!!!!

Now Adrian, he didn't really like the fact that the queen didn't like Rose, or so we all thought. and he was her favorite nephew, as well as her only, so he could of easily been alone with her. he also probably would of had easy access to roses stake. and he could of been settin rose up so that she was in her room with him after he killed her. but I know cause' there is still missing information.

Or even someone who works for the queen or at the court cause' they would of had a key to get into roses room as well as the queens.

Then there is Adrians father, Nathan. cause' he doesn't like rose, doesn't like adrian with rose, he wants to be king and was pretty angry when the queen pretty much snapped at him at their dinner.

Last person is Tasha.you have'nt seen her lately in the book and she could be trying to get rose out of the way to get to Dimitri.

all I now for sure is they would need access to both roses room and the queens.
I still believe that it was Daniella though.

Reply if you want to we could probably figure it out.

I definitely don't think it's Ambrose. I don't think it's Adrian either, but I would find it more beleivable than Ambrose. Ambrose really loved the Queen at least thats how I saw it in SB when he defended her to Rose. Plus he gave Rose the note, that would mean the notes fake if it was him, otherwise it just wouldn't make sense.
As for Adrian ... if it was him then it was totally a crime of passion and a move to keep him and Rose together, but I'm starting to think that Tatiana may have been okay with the two of them together. I mean, I think she'd rather him be with a Moroi like Lissa, but I don't think she was as put off with Adrian and Rose in SB as she had earlier been.
Mind you all ... these are my feelings mostly because of the note and what it said. If the queen didn't really write it and it's a fake then my theories don't hold any water.

To Team-Dimka

(I got your message, by the way :D)

You're right about the murderer having access to both Rose's room and the queen's. Could it be possible that the murderer threatened someone or used compulsion to gain access to the room?

I think we should look at each possible culprit. Figure out possible motives and see what they could've been doing while the queen was murdered. Or if they could've murdered the queen. One at a time....

Who do you want to start with? Adrian?

Oh! And I think Queen Tatiana was being threatened, therefore having ample enough time to write Rose the letter. The queen must've known her death was around the corner... I keep thinking Ambrose knows something. Something vital...

PS- I know how guilty you felt about blaming Dimka, loll :P I thought of that too, but he had too many guards with him to do that. Plus, I don't think he could kill the queen- not after all the killings he'd done as a strigoi....

Thunderlove,

I'd like to start off by thanking you for feeling empathetic for my guilt on thinking Dimka. (don't think that really makes sense but you know what I mean, right?)

I didn't really think about someone using compulsion or threatening. Hmmm. I also agree on figuring it out one at a time it might make it easier. I was thinking Ambrose knows more too. Cause' how would he get the note or know where it was or even who to give it to unless he looked at it or the Queen told him. For some reason I keep thinking that someone one from one of the other books came back and did it but we don't know it. Like what about Avery Lazar (from blood promise) cause she's a spirit user so she would have super compulsion. But I forgot what happened to her, did she get locked up or something?

What about the possibility of it being Lissa's half sibiling, and they know about the Queen knowing about them and they don't want Lissa to know.

OH I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING!!!! They would have to know about the note, who ever did it. Also that the Queen knew about Lissa's half sibling. And how the Queen chose Rose to find them. Cause' by them killing the Queen and blaming Rose, Rose wouldn't be able to find Lissa's sibling and nobody else could find out about the note. So they also must want to have the legal age be 16 because without Lissa not having her spot on the council that's what will happen. (stupid quorum)

Anywho (that's a funny word!!) sure let's start with Adrian.
I don't know why but since Adrian first came, in Frostbite, I kept thinking he was trying to trick or set Rose up somehow. Or maybe he's snapping from spirit. He also could easily compel people (super compulsion!!!) and Rose trusted him and his Aunt rules the court so he would be able to get the key to her room. Which also brings me back to what I wrote on my last post on how he wanted to distract Rose after the death. Maybe he wanted Rose in jail so she wouldn't be near Dimitri because Adrian would still be able to visit her (dream stalking.....I mean walking) and noboby else. So that she would continue dating him. Meanwhile he comes up with a way to either save her, blame someone else, or compel her into thinking Dimitri or someone did it (sorry Dimka). But I doubt it.

Also nobody would think of it being Adrian since he was her nephew, and they were close. Ya know? (Lolz)
That's all I got for now.

so what do you think (or anyone else who wants to help)?

Great possibilties of it being Adrian.. But honestly i think we could give an explanation of who did it with each character. I ALSO thought, the first time i saw Adrian i knew he was mysterious and up to something...
But maybe he did set everybody up, it's possible. Maybe everybody was right from the beginning that Adrian was a bad 'influence'. He also might have done it to get close to Lissa as well and find out about her powers and what she's capabale of. I dunno.. He's also gotten a bit cheesy lately in the books, 'COMPLETELY' different from the start, he could have planned it all, although he still might be in love with Rose for real...But Team-Dimka's explanation was a great one, it's very possible!! :)

I just really don't think it's Adrian, but he did get a little upset with Rose there towards the end of SB. He was still nice to her, but you could tell he was getting very frustrated about the whole Dimitri thing.

Maybe between that and his spirit use he went all crazy for a minute and killed Tatiana.

I've been thinking it has to do with something deeper ... Moroi protection, dhampir graduation age, Moroi politics, but maybe just maybe it doesn't and that's just what RM wants us to think. Maybe it is as simple as Adrian going off the deep end a little.

That would certainly be a twist and could also be a "Last Sacrifice" ... Adrian's last sacrifice to be with Rose. I mean, she's his girlfriend so of course he wants her out of prison, but he was awfully insistant that mom get his uncle to be her lawyer.

Could it be because he knew that he did it and she wasn't guilty and getting her off was all a part of his plan.

But then again if he did it because he had a moment of insaneness then he probably wouldn't have had a plan ... I just don't know.

Team-Dimka,

Yes, Avery Lazar is safely locked up in wherever-she-is. So, I don't think it was her. I think we're done with her- for now, maybe...

About the sibling thing...I never thought of that. That's pretty clever. It could be possible, but for some reason, I don't think the sibling would do that. Of course, none of us know who the sibling *is*, but something tells me the sibling would be innocent. (It's a gut feeling, hahaha)

Hmmm. I think she wrote the note right before she died. She probably put it in Ambrose's room or something. I used to say she left it with her, leaving Ambrose to find it, but now that I think about it, the murderer would've taken it. If the murderer knew about the note, they would've read it and thrown it away.

Yet, how do we know the queen wrote the note or not? It could've been the murderer- or just an imposter.

Okay, I agree with the murderer not wanting Rose to find Lissa's sibling. I don't think the murderer knew she wrote the note, though. If he/she did, then he/she would've wanted to know where the note was and threatened the queen and-ahh, maybe that's where he/she killed her. The murderer probably never got a chance to read the note, though. And they're probably thinking Rose knows a whole lot more than she does now... But, here's the thing. The murderer was probably planning to blame it on Rose. So he/she probably knew alot, and.....okay that's hurting my head, haha. We can get back to that later...

---
What you got about Adrian is pretty good. It could be possible. Maybe he thought if he saved Rose from being executed, he would be considered her hero.....

I don't think he's been planning this all along. He couldn't have known who Rose was and yadda yadda yadda...unless he's hiding a spirit power- remember how Oksana and Avery could brush minds? Maybe he knew about Dimitri, not because of what was happening between them, but because he brushed her mind?


Now Adrian...
I also thought he was plotting something. But not what you're thinking. I just thought he wanted to get it on with her...

Maybe he was going crazy for a minute, thinking: If I can't Rose, nobody else will. Hey, it's possible.

He could've gone crazy (like you said) with his anger and love for Rose, mixed with all that spirit stuff. He could've killed the queen not knowing what he was doing. Or he could've killed the queen knowing that without her, saving Dimitri would be easier (obviously doing it for Rose) and the quorum law-thing would be put to a stop.

Now, as the queen's favorite nephew, he probably had access to her room. And he could've used compulsion on people.

OHHHHH! Okay, remember how Lissa and Adrian were learning how you could make a person feel or see something? What if he did that? What if he made everyone think Rose's fingerprints on there? What if he made everyone think it was Rose's stake? And by everyone, I mean the people who found her dead and the people on the council-whatever it's called.

If Adrian killed the queen on purpose, he could've blamed it on Rose because he wanted to be her hero by rescuing her from Trial, saving Dimitri for her and helping Lissa out-all for her. I don't think it's likely, but it's possible.

If he killed the queen accidentally, then maybe he blamed it on Rose because he knew she could get out of anything.

Is this making sense?

He was also "eerily calm" at the court. Why?

Okay, that's all I got for Adrian. Who's next?

(Thanks to the people who also joined!)

Hahahahahaha, dream-stalking(:

Onefee27,

He did get a little upset, didn't he?

I get what you mean about deeper things like Moroi protection...for some reason, I can't think of Adrian being serious enough about it to kill Tatiana. Maybe he's been lying. Maybe he's been acting like he didn't give a crap about politics, when really-he did.

I'm not sure what to make of Adrian wanting Rose to have their lawyer. (Oh, that's right, Danielle didn't really want her to have their lawyer) Maybe he was saying that because he cared about Rose? Maybe he's not actually plotting against them...Maybe he's just being- well, Adrian.

Onefee27: "Could it be because he knew that he did it and she wasn't guilty and getting her off was all a part of his plan.

But then again if he did it because he had a moment of insaneness then he probably wouldn't have had a plan ... I just don't know."

Probably. It depends. If he was guilty and felt guilty about it (loll) then maybe that's why he wanted her to have his uncle as her lawyer. Then again, he could be planning as he goes along.

Thanks for joining us :D And you too, DaniKatZ(:

I don't want Adrian to be the murderer!! >:\

If I can't have Rose*** correction

Oh, and just another thing to add here for motive, well, really anyones motive.

In the first book it says that the monarch chooses their sucessor from the royal families and then the families can dispute the choice.

This means that Tatiana held the right to pick who is the next Queen/King.

I'll try to find the actual quote/passage and post it in a bit.

So, does this mean someone didn't like who she had in mind and who did she have in mind?

I'm thinking she had Lissa in mind and that was why she gave Rose the note about the sibling. Without the Sibling Lissa could probably never rise to power.

Here it is. It's from the banquet where the queen chastized Lissa for leaving school. Right before Rose tells off Christian.

Moroi monarchs were chosen by the previous monarch from within the royal families. The king or queen couldn't choose one of his or her own direct descendents, and a council from the noble and royal families could dispute the choice with enough cause. That almost never happened, though.

Interesting, onefee27.... I forgot all about that(:

I also think Tatiana was going to choose Lissa... but who doesn't want Lissa to become Queen?

Oh, and I'm going back to Adrian right now. Remember how I said he couldn't used compulsion? Well, what if the body they found wasn't Tatiana? What if it wasn't a body at all? What if it was a charmed object that made you *think* it was Tatiana, dead. And what if a charm made some people *think* it was Rose's fingerprints, Rose's stake....

What if the queen was still alive? What if she was being threatened, and she somehow knew she wasn't going to stay long? What if she ran away, and asked Adrian (or some other spirit user) to charm some people? She probably knew Rose could get out of anything. And if she ran away, she probably wanted her "death" to look real. Therefore picking the girl who would most likely be blamed for killing her. Rose.
I don't know if she'd run away, though. She could've been kidnapped and been forced to make it look like she died.

Hmmm, what do you think?

I don't really understand why an imposer or murderer would write the note though. I mean cause' it didn't say 'the sibling is here' or anything like that, to set Rose up, ya know? So what would they really get out of writting a fake note?

Thanks to ThunderLove for clarifying where Avery was, but I just keeping thinking that it's someone from the past, if not Adrian or someone in his family, maybe I'm just over thinking.

For some reason I think the half sibling is Jill A.K.A 'jailbait' cause' her mom is a dancer and Lissa's dad liked dancers and lots of other things that add up to it. I wrote a post about who I thought it was on this forum somewhere. It made sense to me anyway.

If the Queen put the note in Ambroses room wouldn't he of seen it before she was murdered?

Oksana and Avery can brush minds? Hmmmmm guess I forgot about that.

OH he definently wants to get with her (lolz)!! And if he did want to get her killed because "if he can't have Rose nobody can (poor Dimka) that would DEFINENTLY prove his insanity!!! That might be tied in his plan.

I forgot that Lissa and Adrian were practicing making people see/feel things. That would sooo come in handy with his whole plan. (man if Adrian did do this, we definently don't give him enough credit for thinking. lolz)

Why would the Queen or Adrian want to blameit on Rose if there is a possibiliy of her NOT getting out of it? But hey maybe insanity runs in their family.

About the monarchy passage from the book, what if the murderer knew that and that's why they killed Tatiana before she could say who she wanted as the new king/queen. But since the next can't be from the same family as the previous they either A). didn't care about the position. B). Had enough cause' to get the position. Or C). Is from another family.

I think whoever the murderer was and wanted Rose in jail and possibly dead had to of known about the things she did to get enough strikes against her for them to believe it was her. Like maybe how she killed strigoi before, crashed the death thing (forgot what it's called), had an outburt in the court, didn't really like the Queen, was capable of things like this, had moments of going over the edge because of spirits effects. (I still think it might be Adrian now, sorry guys)

If the Queen is still alive because it was faked why would she want everyone to think it was Rose if she wanted her to find Lissa's half sibling? Maybe it was just a cover up?

Does Abe know who did it cause' he seemed really calm?

***Does anyone know what element Queen Tatiana specializes in?***

If the Queen is alive maybe she still didn't want Rose to be with Adrian so she ran off so that Rose would be killed and then when she is the Queen would come back??? I don't know, maybe?

OH I KNOW A WAY THAT ROSE WOULD BE ABLE TO PROVE SHE'S INNOCENT!!!
What if someone used compulsulsio on Rose in front of the court to make her say the truth of whether or not she killed the Queen!!!

Maybe Adrian wants Rose to die so he could bring her back to bond with her for some strange twisted reason, like Avery? Doubt it though.

Well opinions on this?

Thanks to DanikatZ and Onefee27 for joining!!! You guys are great!!

^ it could be jailbait... It could have been an act, she did act all innocent.

Oh and that would be GREAT if they used compulsion on Rose... But would they believe her? I'm not too sure with that, but there must be a plan going on here because it all seems strange.

What if there were more then 1 person doing it, sceming on Rose? But then again, i doubt it.

I think there is a possibility it was Adrian, but i doubt it, i think it would be someone else.

Oh... What about Jesse and Ralf?? Or Eddie (unlikely)? There is just to many people to go through! LOL

I think Abe was confident he could get Rose out of trial...He might know who it was, but one thing's for sure: He knows *something* and he's keeping it secret.

Team-Dimka: ***Does anyone know what element Queen Tatiana specializes in?***

That is a REALLY good question! (I wish I thought of that :P) I think we'll find out? I don't know....(:

You're definitely right! They can use compulsion to make sure she's telling the truth! (They should do that to everyone, actually, loll)

Hmmm. I don't think Adrian's as twisted as Avery, loll. I don't think he'd do that..

The sibling *could* be Jill...doesn't she have the eyes? And her mom's a dancer? hmmm. Didn't know that XD Thanks, loll

I don't think Jill killed the queen, though.

Jesse and Ralf.......no(: They're pretty stupid, but I don't think they could pull off something like that. Or could they? What if the whole group has been planning it?? -I forgot the group name-

I was thinking whether or not Eddie could've done it yesterday, actually.....I'm trying to think of his motives....

[Oh and do you want to vote whether or not Adrian did it? XP]

So before I state my theories, are we ready to move on? We can write the theories for Ralf, Jesse and Eddie at the same time(:

Thunder Love -- I think Abe was confident he could get Rose out of trial...He might know who it was, but one thing's for sure: He knows *something* and he's keeping it secret.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. Abe was way too confident that Rose would not be going to trial ... even after they ruled she would be.

Like you, I don't know if he knows who did it, is in on the whole thing, or what, but he knows something more than we do ... that's for sure. There is no reason he'd be so confident otherwise.

As for Jill being the sibling ... That has been my thoughts as well. It just makes sense because of the whole dancer thing. I've posted that theory somewhere ... here or facebook ... not sure which.

Look if we assume the notes for real and not a fake here's what we know ...

If you're reading this, then something terrible has happened --- She knew someone was against her for some reason.

You probably hate me, and I don't blame you. I can only ask that you trust that what I did with the age decree was better for your people than what others had planned. There are some Moroi who want to force all dhampirs into service, whether they want it or not, by using compulsion. The age decree has slowed that faction down --Are these people who she feels in danger from? She obviosly passed the decree to compromise between a side that wants to force all Dhampirs to fight and a side who wants to fight themselves. She's stuck in the middle and although based upon this note I feel that she feels Dhampirs deserve rights, I don't know that she necissarily feels that the Moroi should fight ... so what side was she on? Was she on either? Or does she fit in the middle somewhere? Going along with the decree obviously means she chose a compromise, but it doesn't actually tell us where her loyalties lie. Also in regards to the decree ... These are the families that voted for it ... Ivashkov, Lazar, Zeklos, Tarus, and Voda ... so can we assume one or more of these families were involved ... assuming her murderers were on the side of forcing dhampirs into guardianship.

However, I write to you with a secret you must put right, and it is a secret you must share with as few as possible. Vasilisa needs her spot on the Council, and it can be done. She is not the last Dragomir. Another lives, the illegitimate child of Eric Dragomir. I know nothing else, but if you can find this son or daughter, you will give Vasilisa the power she deserves. --- This I feel says it all ... I think she wanted to name Lissa as queen as I stated before. It also seemed Victor Dashkov felt the same. How that ties in I'm not sure. Maybe Victor and Tatiana were on the same side ... only Victor, with his illness and all, just went off the deep end. He seemed to know things as well ... He mentioned Lissa leading change at some point that I remember. Can't remember where... I think it was when Rose and Dimitri visited him in jail.

No matter your faults and dangerous temperament, you are the only one I feel can take on this task. Waste no time in fulfilling it. --- So she still doesn't exactly like Rose, but she knows that Rose would do whatever it takes to find Lissa's sibling so Lissa could have a vote and sit on the counsil.

I'm thinking whoever killed her, knew that she was going to have Rose try to find the sibling ... hence framing Rose. That brings us back to who.

Like I said ... whoever it was, I think was one a member of one of the families that voted for the decree because that's what makes the most sense ... unless Richelle wants to put in a huge twist.

I guess as far as Adrian is concerned ... what side is he on ... his families or Roses. Is his family even on the side that wants to force Dhampir's into guardianship ... very possible his dad is ... I'm not so sure about Daniella. If she's on that side, then she's a great actor cause she actually seemed pretty accepting of Rose, IMO.

Yes, she definitely saw trouble coming...

onefee27: "Going along with the decree obviously means she chose a compromise, but it doesn't actually tell us where her loyalties lie."

Very true! That is an interesting thought process.... Will we find out in Last Sacrifice, along with what power she specializes/specialized in? Hmm.

Ah. Son or daughter. So we don't know for sure the sibling is female... But I still support your theory about Jill!

Yes, Victor had told Rose that one day Lissa will be a powerful leader when she and Dimitri had visited his cell... Rhonda and Tatiana had also said that. Practically everyone knows she'd succeed though.

I agree that the killer must've known about the illegitimate child and that Rose would be determined to find him/her. How did they find out, though, about the child? From the stolen files? Did this person somehow know about the account -whatever it was- that was set up for the mistress?

*Will* there be a huge twist?

I think Adrian's father wants to force all dhampirs into guardianship. Definitely. And I don't know if Danielle even *has* an opinion. Maybe she's a people pleaser? I'm not sure about her. And if Danielle shared the same opinion as her husband and acted like she accepted Rose, then she could've fooled anyone. Hence she could've killed the queen. And hmmm.. I know that couples can accept each other, but it doesn't look like Nathan's a pretty accepting man (if I may say so myself :P). If he and Danielle had different views, they'd have a choatic relationship. And it doesn't *appear* like they do. So that would mean she has the same opinion as her husband. That's something to chew on....

Now, Jesse and Ralf....like I said before, they're pretty stupid. But they do have one thing: the power of their group, the Mana (finally got it!!!). *AND* they get pretty physical\:

Eddie.....is innocent, in my opinion. If he'd actually done that, I'd have to admit that I'd overlooked him :P loll

What's your take? I know there's nothing much to think about them, but it's good that we go over alot of characters....

And I don't think Adrian did it. He could've been tricked into doing things, but he couldn't have been the mastermind!\:

I agree about Ralf and Jesse being to stupid!!!!
And I really don't think Eddie did it unless his
whole 'nice guy' act was totally fake, but I doubt it.

It being someone who wanted the age decree and other laws is a great possibility.

I think Viktor said that when he said that he wanted Lissa to help with his revolution.

I think that Daniella is too calm about everything, so she might of helped with this whole plot.

I think that Ambrose got the files from the Alchemists for the Queen because he had to run an 'erraned' around the same time they were stolen. Besides how else would she get them or know?

QUESTION: What do you guys think the 'last sacrifice' is?
Who do you think will die?

It seems like somebody dies in every book.

I'll post again later with more info!!!
Bye!!

I think I know a way they could break her out of jail, not sure though.

What if Lissa charmed some silver that could alter peoples image to look like someone else. Example: Rose and Lissa switch appearances. So Rose switches with someone so while she's looking for the half sibling someone else is in jail as her.

It doesn't really make sense cause' I don't really know how to explain but I think you guys got the concept of what I'm trying to say. Except I don't know Who would want to put their life at risk, but maybe that's the sacrifice. And since it's 'last sacrifice' maybe it's Dimitri or Adrian who take the chance. Still doubt it though, just a thought.

What do you guys think??

On the whole Jesse and Ralf thing ... they did graduate, so they could have played a role even though they are stupid.

Adrian told Rose about Mana and told her that his Dad had been a member and they were basically a stupid club who generally had some sort of agenda and can sometimes help you after you graduate with your career.

To me that sounds sort of like one of those conspiracy theory type fraternities ... Skulls and Bones ... If you've seen the movie "The Skulls" it's losely based on this.

Basically it's an underground college fraternity or secret society that many powerful people have been members of. There's no proof of anything, but there are many conspiracy theories ... everything from drugs to murder to political corruption about this group.

To me Mana sounds just like them and I'm thinking that maybe they could be involved in the murder.

This is why ...

1. Adrian's dad is a member and he's a member of one family that voted for the age decree and I think we've basically decided that he'd force all Dhampirs to fight.
2. Why did Richelle bring Mana in in the first place? It was really such a small part of the story. The wards could have been broken other ways as they'd been during the other 2 massacres, so I think Mana had some other purpose ... besides their concentration of magic weakening the wards ... which up to this point is really all that story was good for ... well, it did make Rose mad which led her and Dimitri to make love, but that could have been done another way as well. I guess what I'm saying is that Mana will be mentioned again. There had to be a bigger purpose in them than what's been mentioned.
3. The kids were working with compulsion. Now, this doesn't mean that Mana as a whole is into compulsion, but Avery used her compulsion on Lissa. Avery is a Lazar. Lazar was also one of the families that voted for the age decree. That makes me wonder if her dad may be a part of the mana and maybe she happened upon her strong power of compulsion with his help.

All of that could tie back to the Mana chapter at St. Vlads. Maybe since members like Jesse and Ralf have graduated they are being recruited to do nefarious things for the organization.

As for the sacrifice ...

I don't know if it's just big hope, but I'm thinking it might not mean death.

With that said, I don't know what it could be. It could be as simple as Dimitri and Rose giving up being guardians to be together. It could be Rose sacrificing her love for Dimitri to be with Adrian or vice versa. It could be Rose giving up specifically being Lissa's guardian. It could be someone giving their life. Oh ... or could the sacrifice already have occurred ... could Tatiana's death in some way be the sacrifice?

Ithink it was Adrians dad whats his name? I dunno but we will find out in lst sacrifice. i bet it will be the last person we expect.

WOW Onefee27 you put a lot of thought into that!!!
If you don't mind me asking, which book was that written in?

so maybe it's a group thing, man people must really hate Rose. It wouldn't surprise me if that's wha tit is, I figured it's something from the past that would be brought up again. What I didn't expect was the possibility of Ralf and Jeese being part of it!!

This is harder than I thought, it seems like EVERYONE could have some motive in doing this!!

I just hope that Dimitri doesn't die (I know Rose won't cause' she's telling the story)!!! Also that the sacrifice ISN'T Rose and Dimitri giving up their love for one another!!!

I'll post ya guys later!!! And awsome job to everyone!!!!!
You guys are great!!!

My post comes from many books! LOL!

If you're talking about the part about Adrian's dad being a mana member and Adrian's explaination, I think it's Shadow Kiss, but I'll have to look it up to be sure.

Once I find it, I'll post it. I just keep coming up with more and more ideas and I have no clue if any of them are right, but it sure is fun trying to figure it all out!

Alright ... found it ... it was Shadow Kiss ...

"Does the word Mână mean anything to you?"
He leaned against the wall and reached for his cigarettes. "Sure."
"You're inside the school," I warned.
"What—oh, right." With a sigh, he put the pack back in his coat. "Don't half of you study Romanian here? It means 'hand.'"
"I study English here." Hand. That didn't make any sense.
"Why the interest in translation?"
"I don't know. I think I got it wrong. I thought it had some connection to this thing that's been going on with these royals."
Recognition flashed in his eyes. "Oh Lord. Not that. Are they really doing it here too?"
"Doing what?"
"The Mână. The Hand. It's this stupid secret society that pops up at schools. We had a chapter of it back at Alder. It's mostly a bunch of royals getting together and having secret meetings to talk about how much better they are than everyone else."
"That's it then," I said. The pieces clicked together. "That's Jesse and Ralf's little group—the one they tried to get Christian to join. That's what this Mână is."
"Him?" Adrian laughed. "They must have been desperate—and I don't mean that as a slam against Christian. He's just not really the type to get into that kind of thing."
"Yeah, well, he turned them down pretty hard. What's the point of this secret society exactly?"
He shrugged. "The same as any other. It's a way to make people feel better about themselves. Everyone likes feeling special. Being part of an elite group is a way to do that."
"But you weren't part of it?"
"No need. I already know I'm special."
"Jesse and Ralf made it sound like royals had to stick together because of all the controversies that are going on— about fighting and guardians and all that. They made it sound like they could do something about it."
"Not at this age," said Adrian. "Mostly all they can do is talk. When they get older, Mână members sometimes cut deals for each other and still have secret meetings."
"That's it then? They're just hanging out and talking to hear themselves talk?"
He turned contemplative. "Well, yes, of course they're doing lots of that. But I mean, whenever these little chapters form, there's usually something specific they want to
do in secret. Each group's kind of different that way, so this one's probably got some plan or scheme or whatever." A plan or scheme. I didn't like the sound of that. Especially with
Jesse and Ralf.
"You know a lot for someone who wasn't in it."
"My dad was. He never talks much about it—hence the secret part—but I picked up things, and then I heard about it while I was at school."

There you go ... It's chapter 20 BTW ... I only have a PDF of the book, so I don't have a page # the would correspond with an actual page number in a physical copy of the book ... I've found they are different ... My PDF's of VA and FB are less than 200 pages, but I do have copies of those books, both of which are around 300 pages ...

Hmmm. I agree to everything you're saying.....

Team-Dimka: "What if Lissa charmed some silver that could alter peoples image to look like someone else. Example: Rose and Lissa switch appearances. So Rose switches with someone so while she's looking for the half sibling someone else is in jail as her."


And wow! What a clever idea!!! I never thought of that! *claps* I think that will happen. It seems something like Richelle would come up with. You know, with the execution coming up and how Rose has to find the sibling before either Lissa's charms wear off (can't she charm it again? or would it take too much energy?) or you know....Lissa is killed. Could Lissa pull the act off? Acting like Rose?

And sacrifice, sacrifice...... I have to think more about it before I post anything XP Great thinking, guys!(:

I'm so confused with all of this ...
I just don't know what to think. I'm re-reading the series while I wait for December and I'm at the end of the first book right now and some of the things Victor says to Lissa and Rose near the end of the book are really making me think it could be Victor's people ... and possibly Tasha's.
Richelle Mead has given us so much movtive from so many directions. I could go through every book and find conversations and thoughts from several different people that make them look guilty.
I know we've totally got it figured out, but the question is which theory is right?
It almost gives me a headache thinking about it.

What about.... MS KARP?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

onefee27,
I totally agree. I guess we'd have to think: What would Richelle write? Would she want a big twist in the series? etc etc

Now we can go on and on with this. If you want. We could go through each person (well, almost each) and decipher their words and actions (and in some cases: thoughts). I think if we do this, it will help us find out more. Should we be thinking like Richelle?

DaniKatZ,
Loll, now that you mentioned it, I had thought of her......

But the problem is.....if Mrs. Karp was able to get in the school then would other strigoi break in also? And wouldn't there be some sort of attack again like the time before? And in the crime of the scene, there was supposedly blood everywhere (or am I wrong?). A strigoi couldn't possibly resist that.... Or resist all the other vulnerable moroi...not to mention dhampirs.

It's a good thought, but to me, it would seem impossible(:


Do you think Ms. Karp will be in Last Sacrifice? If so, what do you think she'd be involved with? Do you think Mikhail would try to save *her*, too? Let me know your thoughts(:

I totally think Ms. Karp will be in Last Sacrifice! I'm not sure how she'll play in, but I've had this feeling that we'd be seeing her every time Mikhail and Rose spoke of her in Spirit Bound.
When she hadn't shown up by the end, I basically decided we'd be seeing her in the next book.
I do think Mikhail would try to save her ...
Oh My ... while typing this I just formed the perfect twist theory in my head ...
Perhaps Mikhail is jealous of Rose for being able to save Dimitri ... He's not happy with the age decree and doesn't particularly like the queen, but more than that, he knows Rose feels the same.
He comes up with a plan to get rid of the queen and deal with Rose ...
Do to his mental state (that nobody realizes yet ... he's crazy over Ms. Karp) he decides to kill the Queen ... no skin off his back because he doesn't like her anyway and then he frames Rose.
Framing Rose for the Queens murder is the best way to get back at her for saving Dimitri.
He had connections at court with other guardians ... he got Rose in to see Dimitri and I sort of got a strange vibe from him at the end of the book when he went to get Rose for her hearing.
Most would never suspect him because he's always been so agreeable and helpful to Rose, but if you really think about it .... it makes sense for a lot of reasons.
Mikhail went to go kill Ms. Karp and when he finally gave up he was punished for leaving by being given a crap job guarding records in the records room.
Rose was punished, but after saving Dimitri, suddenly Hans was sort of all about her. He even told her he'd like to fight with her if I remember correctly.
Not only was Rose on track to getting a real guardian job, but she actually got Dimitri back.
Now I know Dimitri and Rose arent' exactly together, but everyone knows he's been through a lot so in this case, I don't think that matters. Plus, I think Mikhail would gladly have Ms. Karp hate him if she could be a moroi again.
What do y'all think?

Sorry I haven't posted in a while!!!

Actually I was thinking about Ms. Karp this morning!! Lolz Only problem was I couldn't come up with a reason why she would be a suspect. I totally understand what Onefee27 said. I mean they mentioned her every once in a while so why wouldn't she pop up again. It is also someone people wouldn't expect. But, Idon't know it still just seems.....too out there? Still possible though!

I was also re-thinking Viktor, even though he would have to be a total idiot to give up freedom! Because remember in Vampire Academy when Rose and Dimitri visited him in jail and he said he had 'connections'. Well those 'connections' could be who helped him. I was also thinking that Tasha was part of it too because Viktor also said that he was doing the same thing as Tasha except she wasn't doing as good as a job. So they possibly could of teamed up with some guardians. Cause' remember Viktor might be in jail, be he is still a powerful royal (he could also have strigoi helping), I mean he managed to kidnap Lissa that one time. Plus when Rose is gone it would be easier for him, he could also probably convince Lissa cause' she wouldn't be as stable. So out of the whole scheme Viktor gets power and Tasha could possibly get Dimitri. I don't like Tasha cause' she was trying to take Dimka away from Rose.

Couldn't Dimitri ask Yeva (his grandmother)?
Or even go to Rhonda, I mean they might know something, at least it's worth a try?

P.S. I might not be able to post as much as I would like to cause' my laptop broke recently :( so I'm using my sisters' computer. But I'll try!! Thanks guys, bye!!!

onefee27,
I totally agree! Plus, did you read his reaction to Rose when he was taking her out of the cell? You might want to re-read that part.... loll XD

Team-Dimka,
I understand how Tasha and Viktor could be working together, but I don't want to see Tasha be the one who killed the queen. Sure, she was annoying at some parts (you know, when with Dimka and all), but I kind of admire her. I don't want to see her...evil.

Oh, and what would Dimka ask his grandmother? Or Rhonda? For help?(:

Oh, and Team-Dimka, I TOTALLY understand about your laptop problem(: I don't have a computer problem, but I *do* have a busy schedule :P So I can kind of relate(:

What I meant with Dimitris grandmother is, in blood promise the Belikovs' said something about how Yeva can sorta see what happens in the future (don't know the exact term used)

and Rhonda, they could do the tarot cards thing and see if it says anything about the murder, like who killed her, if they find out, or something like that.

Right now I'm re-reading the series to see if I could find out anything new.

So far my best bets are (in order of most to least likely):
Ralf and Jesse with the Mana
Adrian
Adrians father and/or mother
Viktor (only reason cause' he seemed happy to see Robert again)


Hmmmm maybe Lissa did it....Kidding!!! But if that happened it would be a total WTF moment!!! Don't ya think!

***Who should we talk about next?***

Hmmm, I guess you're right!!

And I think it's a good idea to re-read them...

lollz, that would be a total shocker to me!

How about Christian?

Hey guys, sorry I haven't posted in a while.

Okays, so Christian. I don't think that Christian would of done it, and I can't really come up with any reasons he would. The only thing I can think of is maybe he's tired of the Ozeras having a bad reputation because of Christians parents willingly becoming strigoi. That's all I got, unfortunantly.

I'll try and post at least once a day.

Yeah but that wouldn't have helped anything Just give the the Ozeras a badder rep.

i totally agree with you.... D ivashkov acted way to kind and you don't do that when you a royal moroi.., but i also think that Nathan and Daniella are in on it.. and they might the ones to rob the alchemist history as well for eric Dragmir history.. and i think they wanna wipe lissa sister/brother so she cant be the queen...

Sorry but I am like sooo out of ideas!!

So who do you think did it now?

my best guess is Ralf and Jesse with the mana, cause' I mean why did they really like Rose since like the Frostbite or something. Also in shadowkiss they were attacking Lissa and you didn't hear of them in a while, so it's sort of unexpected, well unless you expect the unexpected!

So yeah you can say your final guess and why or you can come up with more ideas!

Hey all ...
I haven't posted in a while ... haven't had much time and frankly I'm still confused ... the further I get into my re-read of the series the more confused I get.
There are so many little tidbits stuffed into these books that make you think everyone did it! I don't know where to even begin anymore!

This hasn't really been thought out at all so theres probably HEAPS of flaws in it hahaha, it's just a random thought by me.. but um what if The Queen knew she was going to die, and she planned it or something...but i guess that wouldn't explain why she would use roses stake..hahah i don't know! i guess we'll just have to wait for the book hey :)

I think it was either Daniella or nathan Ivashkov. nathan because he doesn't like adrian being with rose and doesn't want lissa to become queen because then things will change. Daniella because she could tell that adrian was getting to serious about rose and could tell he was going to have his heart broken. when adrian told her that it couldn't be rose because the had spent the night together the look she got on her face may not have been the look of a mother hearing that their child had spent the night with their girlfriend. it could have been her going O S*** adrian was there that is going to ruin the plan and give rose an alibi. and once she found out about adrian spending the night with rose she could have paid or compelled the maitnence guy to say that adrian arrived later than he did, so that rose had no evidence that she was in her room alone at the time that the queen was killed!