Speculation: Whither the Ironborn? | Winter Is Coming 

With filming in Spain scheduled to start next week, and the Dozens of Dornish that have been added to the cast this year, there’s a question that’s been rattling around in my head. Where are the Ironborn?

introduces a lot of new characters and landscapes that we had not visited in the first three books. The first is Dorne. Not only do we go down to meet the late lamented Oberyn’s family, but we have a full series of adventures over the course of the next two books, where it is revealed….well, let’s just say, we learn why Dorne has cut themselves off from the rest of Westeros in these last few decades. In fact, there’s so much set in Dorne, I started referring to their chapters as “Those Damn Dornishmen” because it felt like they were taking over the story.

The second landscape we visit for the first time involves the Iron Islands. In our travels past the Pyke to the Island of Old Wyk, we meet Theon’s extended family of Greyjoy uncles, plus many of their followers. We also get more acquainted with Yara’s crew. (Or “Asha” as she’s known in the books.) We also meet some minor Lords as well. In fact, there’s so much set in the Iron Islands, I started referring to their chapters as “Those Idiot Ironborn” because it felt like they were taking over the story.

Which is why, when the casting for Season 5 was announced, and there was only a rasher of Damn Dornishmen announced, I was curious. We were leaving the Idiot Ironborn until next season?

Clearly, I am not a big fan of either of these story lines, and my apologies to those that enjoyed them. To be fair, I liked the Dornish characters as individuals, but I resented how much page time was devoted to them. On the other hand, I was not a fan of most of the Ironborn we met, either as characters or in terms of how many pages were devoted to them. At first, when I saw only Dorne had been cast, I thought perhaps the Ironborn were being pushed to Season 6. That was, until I took another look at the show’s version of the House Greyjoy family tree.

In the books, Theon and his sister (whatever you want to call her) have extraneous uncles who all come forward to claim Balon Greyjoy’s crown when our fourth claimant in the War of Five Kings bites the dust under somewhat mysterious circumstances. Uncle Aeron is a priest of the Drowned God, and something of a Evangelical Born Again. Uncle Euron is a psychopath who cuts out the tongues of all his crewmen, and wears an eyepatch. Uncle Victarion is both religious and a calm warrior, and in his bio, George R.R. Martin refer to him as “dumb as a stump.” There’s also another uncle, known as Urri, but he’s dead long before the events of our story unfold. All these uncles gather together with Asha/Yara after Balon’s death, along with a few minor lords who also want a shot at the crown, to hold a Kingsmoot.

As you can see from the show’s version of the Greyjoy line in the above picture, most of these uncles no longer exist. As much as I disliked these characters, I had to admit to a bit of disappointment when I realized this. After all, in Season 2, when Theon goes home, and Balon Greyjoy announces his intention to through his sigil into the War of The Five Kings race, we see a Drowned God Priest giving blessings. The theory at that time was that this was Aeron, who would become important later. Apparently that is not the case.

So what exactly is going to happen to the Ironborn, now that there’s not a bunch of squabbling uncles to stand around trying to hold a Kingsmoot? As far as we know, Balon still lives on the show. His death in Book 4 is tied back to prove that Melisandre’s leeches of Robert’s son’s blood being thrown into the fire kill off all the extraneous claimants to the throne. (In the show it’s Gendry. In the books, it’s a different bastard.) It is also suggested that perhaps his death was due to a Faceless Man, but that’s never proven or referenced directly. There are in fact, a couple of theories on the death of Balon Greyjoy, if you’re in the mood to go down that rabbit hole*.

(*Please Note: There are casual spoilers at that link.)

Another thing the Kingsmoot triggers is Asha/Yara deciding to take off for the mainland, after her gender disqualifies her in the eyes of all her uncles from ruling them. But this is unnecessary for

, as the show decided to have her defy her father, and ride to rescue Theon after Balon disowned him. In the books, the Kingsmoot is mainly directed by Aeron, with the hopes of crowning Victarion. Since neither of these characters exist now, is there really a reason to have one at all? Since Euron manages to win anyway, it’s far more streamlined to simply have Balon die, and Euron take the throne.

Will Balon’s death still happen in Season 5? Or will we push this whole plot line (or what might remain of it) off until Season 6? One argument for any Ironborn activity being held off for another season is the lack of casting for Euron at this time. There’s quite a few characters still missing who I was expecting to see cast for this season–perhaps with the decision to introduce all the Dornishmen at once, Benioff and Weiss have put several characters off until Season 6?

There’s only one snag in choosing to nix the Kingsmoot altogether. Once Euron wins the throne, he orders Victarion to sail for Meereen to entreat Dany with an offer of marriage. Exactly what this will accomplish (if this will accomplish anything) is unknown at this time, since Victarion barely reached Meereen by the end of

But one assumption is that his boat, along with a magical artifact, is a perfect deus ex machina to sail her and her dragons back to Westeros. If there’s no Ironborn ship handy for her to sail back, how exactly will Dany return to her homeland? Perhaps that’s why the Second Sons have taken hold of the Meereenese fleet in the TV show, which I don’t remember happening in the books. (More importantly, who gets to find and possess said artifact? Is it still Euron’s?)

Anyone got any better theories? Are we happy the Idiot Ironborn are cut? Were you looking forward to the Kingsmoot? Are we sorry not to have the ravings of Aeron entertain us? Do we think the intrusions of the Dornishmen will feel less like they overtake the narrative if the Ironborn are removed? Sound off in the comments!

For those who’ve been missing the Iron Islands (I know there must be some fans out there who...

On June 2, 2013,  Game of Thrones fans got to see the infamous Red Wedding rendered onscreen. You...

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I’m thinking they’ll probably cover some of the Ironborn storyline through dialogue. We’ll just hear about what’s going on when Ramsay relays news to Theon/Reek, or Yara will hear about it through a parchment delivered. Something like that.

I think Euron and Victarion are likely cut. Whatever purpose they ultimately will serve in the books will be re-purposed to other characters in the show. The Ironborn presence in the story will continue to be represented solely through Theon and Yara.

I’m kinda glad about this. As the article opines, it wasn’t a very interesting or likeable part of the story. Leaving it out frees up time and resources to focus on the more interesting stuff.

I didn’t care much tor the ironborn story line either. And I say good riddance if they’re cut.

Perhaps Varys / Illyrio will have a dragonhorn hidden somewhere, and sends it to Meereen with Tyrion.

Benioff and Weiss should be shot into space.

We get loads of boring Tyrell overkill, yet it looks like Victarion and Aeron are cut.

It looks like we will get Euron at some point, but the combined badass-ness of Euron and Victarion would have been epic.

You might want to spoiler some of that, certain people haven’t died in the show yet.

Nice to know I’m not the only one who doesn’t like Dornish and Ironborn storyline in AFFC.

I am glad the Ironborn storyline is cut. It looks like Euron will still be there and I think he is the only one that matters anyways.

Interesting speculation bot here and on watchersonthewall.com (the old writers here)

The Greyjoy uncles are mentioned in a small council meeting on the TV show.

@Stone Cold Bastard: agreed in everything, except for having the showrunners shot into space. Their show, their rules. We have the right to complain and ultimately stop watching if we don’t like what we see.

If all 3 Greyjoy brothers are cut, my excitement for GoT for the remainder of the show will diminish by half. Everyone’s got an opinion, but i can’t grasp how anyone can find the Ironborn boring.

I mean, being killed by either Euron or Victarion might be the only way to bring some dignity to show-version of Loras Tyrell at this point.

Tyrion mentioned Theon’s uncles in s1e4 when the two were talking about the Greyjoy rebellion and Tyrion was giving Theon shit about it (the scene that ends, “your next tumble w/ Ros is on me”). I can’t recall any other mention of the uncles, at a small council meeting or elsewhere.

“I still remember watching my father’s fleet burn in Lannisport. I believe your uncles were responsible.”

I gotta say that I’m not really going to miss the whole King’s Moot storyline. It takes up a ton of space in the books but doesn’t move the plot any further along, other than adding an entire other contingency in search of Dany and her dragons.

Love the Dornish though, bring on the Sand Snakes!

I don’t really recall but I seem to remember it being between Tyrion and Tywin in a meeting. It must have been after the sack of Winterfell and they were trying to figure out who would be the heir if Theon had died, but not really sure without trolling through all the episodes. The quote was something like “there are uncles aren’t there?”

IMO – They would be cutting too much to take the Gryejoys out completely. You need Euron at least. We also need to know if it was a faceless man that killed Balon and did Euron have a dragon’s egg that he paid them with?

My thinking is that the show is reserving the iron islands for season 6, even if they have to retro some scenes. There has been a bunch of shows skipping forward in time that fill in scenes that happened in the intervening years – ala Boardwalk Empire. I’m not a fan of that kind of visual storytelling, but if they have to retrofit some of the ironborn story to match events that have already played out elsewhere, it’s one way to do it. The other reason to defer the ironborn is so that they have pre-written GRRM material for season 6 instead of having to write the whole season from drafts and sketched outlines. Deferring to season 6 also explains the long delayed 3rd leech effect.

I think they will be moved to season 6 (or at the end of season 5). I think the kingsmoot will be in the show but much smaller.

First greyjoy episode:Yara returns home and she hear that her father is dead, she meets Euron and she demends a Kingsmood.

Second Greyjoy episode: Kingsmoot same as Tyrion’s trial. Short but Powerful.

Third Greyjoy episode: Show Victorion (or euron himself) sails away towards Danny.

Fourth Greyjoy Episode: Sailing toward Mereen, finding Moqorro (if he gets important. Or something that he is almost at Mereen. This episode has only the purpose to let the audience know he is in Essos and almost at Mereen.

This can easily be the next couple of episodes: 6×02, 6×03, 6×04 (or 1 to 3), 6×07 or 6×08 and 6×09 at the battle. So there’s no need for them to be in season 5.

There are many new characters, so i think Benioff/Weiss will try do adapt with some of the already existent cast.

Maybe Balon doesn’t die and play some sort of Euron adaptation, perhaps giving himself the

to Yara/Asha and she will sail East instead of Victarion.

Maybe even use Jorah Mormont play the Griff part mixed with his own parts in the ADWD later on.

With something like this going on, they could use already existing actors and keeping them active instead of another stach of new faces.

I am far less concerned about the Greyjoys than I am the Riverlands storylines. Where are Edmure, Brynden, the Freys, and Lady Stoneheart?

euron got pushed back because daario and euron are the same person. I still believe it thats why the iron born keep gettin pushed back and why daario captured exactly 93 ships same as the iron born fleet.

Don’t mind the Iron Islands but Dorne is just painfully boring, more so chapters about the prince traveling to Mereen, could easily be cut out, I’m sure the writers could think of a better way to free Dany’s children

I didn’t care much tor the ironborn story line either. And I say good riddance if they’re cut.

Regardless of whether you’re a fan of the Greyjoys or not–and I call AFFC “Too Many Greyjoys”–it still feels extremely strange not to have them around. It seemed pretty damn important

to have Victarion’s story of sailing into Meereen with the ability to control dragons

and if that’s part of this season’s story without him or the Kingsmoot, it’ll be strange.

I can understand if D&D want to streamlime the kingsmoot story and number of uncles somewhat and cutting another religious fanatic might not be so bad after all. However, it seems to me from the books, that there are two possibly important events related to the ironborn. Having just one uncle makes it hard to cover that and I believe one would have to cover them. Apart from Mereen the attacks by “Euron and the ironborn” (great bandname btw) on Oldtown and the Reach seem to me rather important for the Tyrell and eventually fAegon storylines.

I’ve heard my fair share of GOT theories, but I’ve never heard this Euron-Daario theory before. What’s it based on?

There is a decent chance Daario and Euron are the same character, which would make dealing with the Greyjoy plot troublesome in a TV format where you can’t hide faces/credits from the viewer.

If this holds up there is a decent chance we will get a scene early this season where Euron’s Silence sails into Pyke during a raging storm and Balon falls. Euron would be established off-screen as a madman through news in King’s Landing, Dorne, Winterfell, etc. It would be rather similar to how Stannis was oft mentioned in Season 1 but never seen.

The piraty/ Vikingy (i.e. unsubtle) intrigue of the Ironborn was a welcome departure from the courtly drama of King’s Landing, Dorne and Meereen. Would also have made for a refreshing visual contrast (the scenes by the shoreline outside Pkye were beautiful, for example). As it stands, we have three major story lines that take place in similar arid and semi-arid climes (King’s Landing, Dorne, Braavos and Meereen).

Hopefully, we’ll still get some of that, even if it’s reduced to a struggle between Yara and Euron.

The Ironborn have the only photo-democratic system in Westeros ( Similar to Ireland’s Tanistry in the Middle Ages) and most of the more entertaining characters.

I could deal with Cic and Euron being merged ( but would prefer not) but eliminating it all together would be foolish.

George started the Greyjoy story early on , tho they go missing for a long time in the story. I loved the story especially when he picks it with Asha (Yara) again. Everbody frets about Euron but (without it being a spoiler) it is Victarion and the Iron Fleet who come to the fore later in the story and seemingly (we have not gotten there yet) will play a major role. i love the kind of whacky , almost gypsy, pirate- Viking-like culture the Ironborn have, it’s a hoot.

One thing. Since season 2 Gemma Whelan has appeared, actually surprisingly in season 3, even if it was brief (I never saw any forewarning about anyone seeing Gemma or Patrick Malahide about before season 3, yet they had that short sequence.

With greater attention to the cast nowadays no info on Gemma , but I still expect that stuff will be filmed later. In fact no info on Alfie and for sure he is going to be in season 5.

It’s based on wishful thinking and a jetpack/teleportation device. I’ve heard it before and it makes no sense whatsoever.

I think the show needs to portray the Greyjoys, in some capacity. Aeron, Euron & Victarion should appear, if only to demonstrate the former power and ferocity of the Krakens. So far, we’ve got Balon, who is an amoral weasel. Then we’ve got Theon, immature, weak-minded and always humming Cinderella’s “Don’t know what you got til it’s gone”. Only Asha/Yara has shown any true Iron in her blood. I think Victarion could quickly become the beloved Oberyn Martel-character of whatever season he ever appears in, if he does. And wouldn’t Euron make a great evil genius, now that Tywin Lannister is gone? I enjoy the Greyjoys immensely, even more so in the books. I dig how GRRM incorporated the pirate lore into their background.

On the subject of the Greyjoys, I don’t know if I read to much into the scene from Season 4 Ep 3 where Tywin is counselling Tommen and mentions a conflict in which a great house, rich in food and supplies requests an alliance against another power with a large navy that could be a threat, and how would Tommen know who to support, but it seems that it could be foreshadowing of concern for an attack by the Krakens. Just an idea.

Am I imaginging things or wasn’t Aeron in the episode where Theon arrives on Pyke to treat with his father?

The Ironborn have been pretty insignificant in the books main story line up until now. Everything they’ve done can be covered by a trow away line or two. Can’t fit everything in the book on the screen. As long as the show maintains Theon’s storyline, I’m fine with that.

I agree that Yara will take some of those duties, but Theon appears destined for other stuff. I think that Yara will largely take Victarion’s place – and sail to Essos, etc.

This is what i get for typing on an ipad…and I can’t edit.

The Ironborn have the only PROTO-democratic system in Westeros ( Similar to Ireland’s Tanistry in the Middle Ages) and most of the more entertaining characters.

I could deal with VIC and Euron being merged ( but would prefer not) but eliminating it all together would be foolish.

The Ironborn plot line can be cut and/or consolidated easily enough. Yara/Asha can take over the role that one of her Uncles provides in the books, and it probably will work much better for the audience simply because she is familiar to them. (One problem with the Crows book that I share with Bundel is the introduction of many new characters that undermined a story about people trying to change themselves: with the established characters, it was easy to follow, but as I didn’t know the Dornish or the Ironborn, the attempted dynamic development seemed flat in comparison.)

I do expect that the show will keep the Spoilery Death for one simple reason: Melisandre promised it a couple of seasons ago. Now, the audience won’t remember that until they show the little “previously on Game of Thrones” bit at the outset. However, Mel has to sell her creds to certain parties: and another accurate foretelling here will work well to that end.

Ultimately, the Ironborn and the Dornish are both cases where the story calls for twenty dollars: and you can use $20 bills in various bills like the book did, or use a couple of $20’s instead. In either case, we need foils for the primary protagonists, who are not Dornish or Ironborn.

The Ironborn have been pretty insignificant in the books main story line up until now. Everything they’ve done can be covered by a trow away line or two. Can’t fit everything in the book on the screen.

Moreover, the Ironborn have been much more important to plot than to story. It should be fairly easy to substitute or consolidate them to serve the same story-telling purposes. (A lot of readers would be just as happy to see that: although I didn’t mind those chapters, I know a lot of people that did!)

The Ironborn have the only proto-democratic system in Westeros ( Similar to Ireland’s Tanistry in the Middle Ages)

Why is that important? It does not bear on story, plot or theme! This is not a documentary of a fictional world, after all.

Wimsey: Why is that important? It does not bear on story, plot or theme! This is not a documentary of a fictional world, after all.

Ray Stevenson would be a better Victarion. Personally I would like to see the Greyjoys accomplish more than getting their asses kicked. They look like a bunch of incompetent pussies on the show. I have a feeling that they will make a big mark in the next book. The show could desperately use a dose of badassery and Say what you will about Victarion’s intelligence level. He IS a deadly warrior. Wears plate mail to sea because he has no fear of drowning. He thinks about how his ax would fair against one of his enemies Valyrian steel swords. He fears nothing, he just lacks ambition. Euron has intelligence, cunning, ambition, and is completely ruthless. He NEEDS to be on the show. The best Greyjoys are the ones that haven’t even been used on the show yet! Don’t sleep on the Greyjoys! I say Mads Mikkelson for Victarion and Jared Leto for Euron.

Looking at the show version of the family tree, it does indeed look like Vic will be cut, but Euron might show up at some point.

Neither of them has done very much so far. Vic is very possibly just a ship delivery boy for Dany and destined to die in the battle of Meereen (considering Daario captured the same number of ships in Meerenese navy as Vic’s surviving fleet was). Euron might be relevant, but so far he’s done nothing in the books except won the Kingsmoot. If he is important, there’s still ample time to introduce him in S6 & S7.

It’s less an opinion than an observation. Proto-democracy itself among the Ironborn does not affect any of the primary or secondary protagonist’s dynamic development directly. Therefore, it is not affecting story here. It does not affect the circumstances of any of the protagonists’ directly: it is only an indirect tool that affects one secondary protagonist. Thus, it is not affecting plot here. And the opinions of different people about proto-democracy or merits of this as a system never come up in the books. Thus, it is not affecting theme.

The closest it comes to affecting any of these things is an extension of the anti-slavery theme regarding women: Asha/Yara’s failed attempts to elevate herself. However, it’s not proto-democracy, but sexism: she’s not taken seriously because she’s a woman. The *tool* for stopping her is not any more important than whether a character pays 20 crowns with a single 20 crown piece, two 10 crown pieces, or with a 100 crown piece that requires change.

Ultimately, the best thing for the show would be to simply have Yara be the one who sails in search of Dany. That would tie together some of Martin’s themes and trim out a plot line that many readers (given online reaction) found dull. (I actually liked it well enough: I’m in the “cut Dorne” camp, myself.)

I think the show runners have painted themselves into a wall with the Greyjoys. In season 1 Tyrion mentions them to Theon, so they exist in their world, or maybe they died too? I dunno. But it looks to be that they have been written out, or they will be introduced next season.

Same thing was done with Trystane Martell. In season 2 Tyrion mentions Trystane as Doran’s youngest son, yet now in season 5 he is now the heir. Either D&D are just shitting themselves, or they are Retcon’ing what they already have mentioned just to fill in gaps by excluding characters

Daario = Euron the showrunners don’t want to spoil it for the book readers and they’re waiting till wow unveils it

Hmm interesting casting choices for Euron and Victarion, could work.

Im not a huge fan of the Ironborn chapters but there are quite a few chapters devoted to the Greyjoys in the last two books and in the big scheme of things they seem more important than the Dornish.

We need Victarion, we need Moquorro and we need the magic horn. How could they possibly cut any of this from the show? Sacrilege in my mind.

More importantly Im pissed off that they are ignoring the Riverlands storyline with the likely ommission of the Blackfish, Edmure, The Frey killings and the resultant aftermath of the Red Wedding and the war on the populace. This whole section helps also to explain the rise of the Sparrows and the faith. I suppose however its not as SEXY as the Sandsnakes innit? Gotta remember the demographic D& D are aiming for but it feels to me that D&D are underestimating the intelligence of their audience and that’s a shame.

I was wondering what the deal was with the missing Ironborn but I have a theory that would explain it. We know that HBO was in discussions with Martin for more TV show ideas and we know that there hasn’t been space for the rest of the Ironborn clan so far. It wouldn’t surprise me if there was a spin off miniseries in a year or two that introduces Euron, Victarion et al, resolved the majority of their Iron Islands threads, after which they could come into the central series as required.

Good points. I think that if they omit any of the Greyjoy siblings, it would be a huge mistake. As I said. The Greyjoys have the means to become a force to be reckoned with. They have one of the largest navies in Westeros, and if they join forces with a certain someone wrecking fools in Essos, u can add complete air superiority to their arsenal. Anyone familiar with the books knows that the Ironborn have a serious ace up their sleeve to control said air superiority. Let’s not forget that right until Aegon the conqueror showed up, they had an empire that spread from the Iron Islands to the Riverlands. I would suggest that when the show catches up with the books(which in some story lines, it already has.) D & D should go the Spartacus route and do a few prequel seasons. One season for Roberts Rebellion(Ser Arthur Dayne vs The Smiling Knight anyone? Tower of Joy anyone?) One season for Greyjoy Rebellion. That would take pressure off of GRRM. Give him two more years to complete Winds of Winter, as well as the show runners. Fans would be the real winners, because a great deal of badass, epic, sheeeet referenced in the show….happened during those events.

What does everyone think about casting for the remaining Greyjoy brothers?

will be the one to fill the shoes of the Greyjoy uncle going to retrieve Dany… How that will work considering she was captured by Stannis idk but hey this is D&D we’re talking about

David (Razor) Harris on Game of Thrones: Episode 505, “Kill the Boy” GIF Recap

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