Disney Princess
answer this question
Disney Princess Question
Why is The Princess and the Frog constantly overshadowed by Tangled?
Since Tangled came out, people have been acting like Tangled is a classic, whilst PATF should be forgotten like The Black Cauldron. Both stories have lovely characters, boy movies have breathtaking animation, the music in both movies depend on your personal taste, and the stories are great. People have said that the story in PATF sucks because it is too complicated, and little kids would get confused, but my 4 and 5 year old cousins at the time could follow it perfectly. People have said that the climax in PATF is weak, but the climax in Tangled is so much weaker and boring. The villains in both movies are kind of bleh. I think both films should get an equal amount of love, as BOTH films renewed a lot of people's interest in Disney, and is keeping he tradition alive. I would like to hear you guys opinion on this matter, why is tangled so much better, etc.
|
next question » | ||
|
Disney Princess Answers
Swanpride said:
The problem with PatF is less that the story is too complicated, but that it doesn't make much sense (too many plot holes). I disagree with you about the climax..due to the messy plot of PatF, this movie has no less than four endings, and the "final battle" isn't really that exciting, even with a death thrown in. In Tangled, we get both main characters being ready to sacrify everything for the other, and with "You were my new dream" a truly romantic and memorable quote. I also disagree about the villains, but even if Mother Gothel were "bleh" and not one of the few Disney Villains with a really interesting motivation, she would be still better than Facilier, because he has not connection nor any real interest in Tiana, and Naveen just becomes his victim by chance. If there is no personal connection, defeating a villain is less satisfying for the audience.
And finally: People might complain about the songs in Tangled (though I don't agree there either), but the movie has a great score. The music in PatF is boooooring, and the songs mostly utterly pointless. And no, PatF didn't renew anything in me...I was just glad that the Disney Animation Studios were back, but when I saw the result, I was disappointed. With Tangled, I felt the Disney magic again. It was stunning, it was inventive, it was a very good adaptation of the original fairy tale, it was revolutionary in terms of animation, it was basically everything I expect from a DP movie. |
posted over a year ago
Could you please point out to me these plot holes? I have heard many people talk about how PATF has all these plot holes, but the only one I have ever seen anyone actually point out or be able to see myself is Charlotte not turning into a frog at the end. I can understand "loopholes" because there are quite a few of those, but not "plot holes."
rhythmicmagic
posted over a year ago
1. How exactly does Facilier getting his grubby hands on big Daddy's money translate into getting a lot of souls? I never got that. 2. There are a couple of instances in which Tiana doesn't know stuff she should know. I mean, she knows about the double or Naveen, doesn't she? Never mind that she doesn't bother to warn Lotti, why exactly does she believe that the double is the real Naveen, even though the rules of the Spell clearly state that she becomes human too when he becomes human? 3. How does Facilier know so much about Tiana? As far as we know, she never dealt with him beforehand. (And those are just the ones on top of my mind - and that's not counting stuff like "why exactly does Naveen suddenly bother to rescue Tiana when he didn't give a shit beforehand", "why the hell and when the hell do they fall in love" and some other character twists which don't really make much sense).
Swanpride
posted over a year ago
Hiding 3 comments... click to show.
1. I thought that getting money would let Facilier be in charge of the town, and therefore he would have the whole town at his command. 2. OK, I guess that would be a plot hole, but I've never really thought a character being stupid counted as that, but I just checked the definition since people are always referring to things as plot holes and I didn't think that it was something that came under that heading, and I guess that would come under "disregarding relevant information to the plot." 3. Hmm, I haven't seen the movie in a while, so I don't really remember everything Facilier knows about Tiana. Nothing really comes to mind, but I'm probably wrong. I can't think of a time Naveen rescued Tiana before he started falling for her, and I have always been able to see the relationship progress at least as well as the relationship in Tangled.
rhythmicmagic
posted over a year ago
Just to explain my whole "plot whole confusion"- I didn't think the term was as broad as it it, I thought "plot hole" only referred to things like in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban where Hermione turns up in the middle of classes when she uses the time-turner (not being there the first time before she went back) and then Harry turning up to cast the patronus at the end 9being there the first time before he went back.)
rhythmicmagic
posted over a year ago
Plot holes: Things which makes no sense if you think about it, but are ignored for the sake of the plot. Other examples are Aladdin being able to see Jafar hypnotizing the Sultan when nobody else notices, Sebastian singing about Ariel getting her voice back after the kiss even though the contract clearly states that the voice is a permanent payment (a minor one, though), the wedding ship with Erics guest apparently making it to the shore safely (while the prince was vanished in the water and a giant octopus was stirring the sea), a healer with tend miraculously turning up in Mulan (seriously, there were only soldiers beforehand and even them got lesser and lesser, where did this guy suddenly come from?). Plot Contrivances: Thinks which could happen that way, but it doesn't look like it happened natural but was forced in to the convenience of the writers. They are okay to a less degree (a little contrivance is more or less in every story), but become a problem when they are noticable. Like, the sultan suddenly being able to change the law at the end of Aladdin, or Pocahontas mulling over her decision for ages just so that she can arrive at the very last minute to rescue John (why didn't she spoke to her father beforehand when that is the guy she loves so much?). Or Mother Gothel telling Rapunzel her real birthday. Or Tiana NOT understanding that friends and family are important after Mama Odie sings a whole song about it.
Swanpride
posted over a year ago
Naturally the lines are blurred between those two....but I have a problem to believe that anyone would be THAT stupid. Plus, it's not only Tiana who is stupid, Ray and Louis know the rules of the spell too and don't point it out. Oh...and about the relationships: The difference between Naveen and Tiana is that Naveen really is a womanizer, one who plans to marry Tiana's best friends for her money, tries to trick her and insults her for the first half of the movie. Flynn on the other hand never really was the swashbuckling "hero", that was only a mask Eugene used to hide his insecurities...and his relationship with Rapunzel started out as opponents of sorts, but not as outright enemies. Yes, he tried to wind himself out of the bargain, too, but he eventually fulfilled it (more than fullfilled it). Naveen never did and never intended to because he couldn't. If someone treated me the way Naveen treated Tiana, I wouldn't give him the time of the day unless he at last made some sort of big sacrify (which Naveen never did) or grovel for a few years. Eugene doesn't really have anything to prove, but he shows that for him, Rapunzels freedom is more important than his own life.
Swanpride
posted over a year ago
Jessikaroo said:
Simple, because Tangled is a better movie. This isn't matter of opinion, because Tangled is the better film in almost all aspects. The characters are more consistent and interesting with realistic arcs, unlike in PatF where there's like four different versions of every main character except for Lottie, and their arcs make no sense (how does Tiana fall in love with Naveen again?); the plot makes sense, unlike PatF which is a convoluted mess; the animation is revolutionary, while PatF is typical annimation; the songs might be worse than regular Disney house, but they do grow on you, where as the majority of PatF soundtrack is horrible (this is coming from someone who adores Jazz); the villain had real motives, while we never do figure out what Facilier wants; the love story is well paced and equal on both sides, where as you can see when Naveen fell in love with Tiana, but we don't know why, and we never see Tiana really fall in love with Naveen. Overall, PatF is a mess. And trust me when I say I'm not biased, because I like PatF considerably more than Tangled, but it's quite easy to tell more care and dedication went into Tangled, whereas PatF was Disney's solution to the racism claims.
|
posted over a year ago
Even though I disagree about the soundtrack and the characters, it was obvious that they put in more time and effort into Tangled. Tangled started production in 2005, and was in production for 6 years, while PATF started production in mid 2006, and was in production for 4 years. BOTH movies are still a lot better than the crap they released in the 2000s.
Jayden-G
posted over a year ago
I have to disagree with most of your points. I don't see where there are several different versions of all of the characters in PATF, in fact, I have basically an opposite opinion, because if anything, I find Flynn's development too abrupt and unrealistic. While, objectively, the animation in Tangled is much better, I've found more people subjectively prefer 2D animation, so I don't really think that would effect most people in favor of Tangled. Music is personal preference, of course, but I can't stand the songs in Tangled and I really like the PATF soundtrack. I think the reason we don't see Tiana fall in love with Naveen is because she intentionally hides her feelings from everyone, including herself. I do agree the plot is too complicated in PATF, but I could follow it perfectly the first time I watched it. I agree that Tangled is objectively the better movie, but I don't think it is by very much, certainly not as much as people make it out to be, and I certainly wouldn't say PATF was a bad movie.
rhythmicmagic
posted over a year ago
@Jayden-G Well, I love Treasure Planet...I think the movie is way underrated. And brother Bear too is better than people give them credit for. Four years is btw the standart production time for an animated movie from Disney, so I wouldn't say that this is a matter of not taking care...it's just that Tangled was the bigger challange because of the hair.
Swanpride
posted over a year ago
Oh, and about Flynn'd development: It's not a development per se. Eugene was always there, Flynn was just the mask he used, and Rapunzel managed to get a glimpse under the mask because they shared a near death experience (which is more or less the only believable reaseon to open up to each other that fast, so kudos!). And honestly, I think the songs in Tangled are really good...the problem is that everyone is nostalgic about the old Menken Songs and expected something which would match this nostalgia. But it's always different if you see a movie as an adult, so Menken had a Snow Ball chance in hell to meet this expectations. I think that "I see the light" is a great song, as is the healing incarnation, and I love the lyrics of "Mother knows best".
Swanpride
posted over a year ago
Which reminds me: The lyrics! If you like the songs in Tangled or not, they all have very thought out lyrics which tell us something about the characters. Most of the songs in PatF just pause the movie - which is part of the reason they are so boring. Most of the time, they don't even tell us something knew, instead the Lyrics blabs endlessly about the stuff we can see on the screen...and that's not what a good song in a Disney movie should do, it should add to the plot, not bring it to full stop for a few minutes.
Swanpride
posted over a year ago
Tiana and Naveen have been in more than one near death experiences, and they both have gotten closer because of that. About Flynn's development, it's not that he developed too fast, but he became his identity, as we saw in the beginning of the movie. He wanted to be a sly and charming, that's who he became, and he was like that for a majority of the movie. If you create another identity and you act like it for a while, eventually you become that. Both relationships in PATF and Tangled developed a bit too quickly for my taste
Jayden-G
posted over a year ago
And abou the music, Down in New Orleans explains abut daily life, Almost There is about Tiana going into more depth about her dream, and that she is so close, Friends On The Other Side is the typical villain song explaining Naveen and the other guys life and wants, which also shows Faciliers sly and deceptive personality. When we're Human is about Tiana, Naveen, and Louis wanting to be human, and Dig A Little Deeper is about what Tiana and Naveen need instead of want, and how they need balance in their lives. So, the songs are not there just to be there.
Jayden-G
posted over a year ago
Tangled's son are there for a purpose as well, but they are not exciting, nor inspiring. The only song I like is Mother Knows Best, and I See The Light is very eh.
Jayden-G
posted over a year ago
The point with the songs in PatF is that we first get the information in the dialog, and then get exactly the same information again in singing form (especially "When we are human" is guitly of that...we already know what everyone involved wants, there is no need to sing about it, too). With Tangled...well, "When will my live beginn" is a little bit give or take, but "Mother knows best" is needed to understand the extend of manipulation she did to Rapunzel...take it out, and neither Rapunzel's reaction to Flynn, nor her fear of rabbits and ruffians would make any sense. The "healing incarnation" is very much part of the plot (plus, those are only two lines), the "Thugs Song" is needed to introduce a bunch of characters at once, and "I see the light" - well I guess you could cut is informationwise, but that's a love song for you, on this kind of song belongs a love song, and it descripes very well the shift in the feelings of Rapunzel and Eugene. Unlike "Ma Belle Angeline"...beautiful tune, but the text has nothing to do with Tiana and Naveen, and we know already that Ray is in love with Evangeline.
Swanpride
posted over a year ago
rhythmicmagic said:
I must agree that I don't see what makes Tangled so incredibly better than PATF, but I will admit that Tangled is objectively the better movie, but only by a little bit. I pretty much agree with what NostalgiaCritic has to say on the matter- Tangled has an amazing plot with mediocre/ good everything else (ok, objectively the animation is AMAZING, but most people prefer 2D, at least in my experience) and PATF has great everything else (well, maybe not music, but I like it, and it least makes sense why that is the style, unlike in Tangled) and a mediocre/ bad plot. Together, I think they could have made an awesome movie.
|
posted over a year ago
I agree with everything you said. Even though Tangled is the better movie, it is not better by much, and NostalgiaCriic was on point with the two movies. Both relationships develop at the exact same pace, and both were a bit rushed, as both Naveen and Flynn's attitude were a bit rushed. I know PATF has some loopholes, but the very best Disney films (BATB) has some plot holes that I found, but no one mentions. I do not think neither are on par with the movies from the Renaissance, but none are on par with the Dark Age films either. These two films, Lilo and Stitch, and Wreck it Ralph are the best films out of the Modern Era.
Jayden-G
posted over a year ago
Loading...
Are you talking about Pixar, or PATF rhythmicmagic?
Jayden-G
posted over a year ago
PATF
rhythmicmagic
posted over a year ago
maryksand said:
The problem with PatF to me is the infinite number of incredible and refreshing ideas and concepts that never actually got the proper and accurate effortful realisation and development. Rather than focusing on Tiana's passion and investement in her dream of owning a resturant and achieving this goal on her own seeing as she was initially presented in the movie as a "strong independent" type of heroine the movie chooses to thrown in the sequence with a random talking frog offering her a bunch of money - without providing any sort of proof that he actually does have said money - and our "strong and independent" carelessly agreeing to kiss him which not only comes off as inconsistent and an unbearably contrived plot device in order to set the events of the story in motion, but generally offensive in relation to Tiana's character due to sending a message of a working class woman being essentially incapable of accomplishing anything unless an obnoxiously arrogant son of royalty ends up by her side... which is not what happens after she kisses him, but what the entire plot eventually comes down to by the end. Naveen, contrary to Flynn, gets virtually no evident character development nor comes to respect women in general. Starting out as a spoiled narcissistic kid who wants to marry for money he intends on using a wealthy girl's naivety and life long dream of marrying a prince in order to keep living a lavish and careless lifestyle instead of getting a job and supporting himself. By the end, Naveen is ready and willing to consciously propose to a girl with the same intention of using her as a money bag which was the initial plan only this time he had an additional goal of founding Tiana's resturant and keeping his promise to her, by that point already being in love with Tiana which only makes his proposal to her best friend who he doesn't love or even know/care about in a slightest a thousand times worse, all of it occurring after the supposed mentality and attitude change that happens literally over second with no basis or substance to it other than Tiana explicitly and openly telling him about how lazy and useless he is after he deliberately and directly mocked her working class by disdainly referring to her as "waitress" due to his general tendency to humiliate people of a lower social standing by either picking on their lack of privileges or other things that Naveen found particulary annoying (such as Tiana not fitting into traditional standards of having fun therefore being "boring") or even body shaming which he continuously confronted his servant with (and judging by Lourence's further statement, the humiliation on Naveen's part was a common practice and the essential attribute of their relationship, which was eventually brushed under the rug by the movie due to Lourence being conveniently villianized).
|
posted over a year ago
PaTF fundamentally lacked any continuity, and it's not much about plot holes - because objectively speaking Tangled has loads of them as well -but about the blatant and glaringly obvious inconsistency. The movie had some of the most revolutionary ideas in Disney history: a goal oriented heroine, an exposition and representation of an equal friendship between two female representatives of a different social class and ethnicity rather than throwing in yet another princess/cute animal sidekick cliche, a prince with an intense investement in music that could have actually been nicely developed instead of the contrivance that his relationship with Tiana was and yet the movie chose to waste this potential entirely.
maryksand
posted over a year ago
Tangled on the other hand took the full advantage of both the animation medium, challenging the artists that put an immense and enormous effort into working on and developing the animation structure including the locations, landscapes, facial expressions, clothes and basically every object in the movie that gained it's own unique and recognizable facture and the character progression and organic/natural transformation of their mentalities and outlooks due to not telling but SHOWING the audience how they confronted the environment, circumstances and/or issues/obstacles on their way of liberation (Rapunzel) and self discovery (Flynn) with the romance developing as the essential continuation of the process of struggling and developing that both characters got to undergo.
maryksand
posted over a year ago
Rere143 said:
It's because Rupunzel was set free but princess in the frog Tiana has set her goal and meeting it so tangled doesn't really over shadow princess and the frog
|
posted over a year ago
scarletunicorn said:
I'm guessing people Liked Tangled more because it reminded them of the classic films they used to like in their youths- Princess Bride, the old Disney films...It has a lot of charming elements that fuel anybody's passion for these type of stories.
I also think, for the typical audience that watch these movies, the characters are much more...relatable? And that's the big thing with characters nowadays. Most people can relate with Rapunzel's cuteness than Tiana's hardworking attitude, and most people daydream about having an adventure in a "magical" fairy talle-ish land over trekking in the swamps of Louisiana. As for why PATF isn't popular...Dunno. People are quick to pull out the race card (and i can agree that i see some people not wanting to like this movie because of Tiana being black), but it also happens that PATF is in the middle of the road. It's cute, but nothing really that groundbreaking when compared to, say, Little Mermaid or Beauty and the Beast (talking about movie only-terms. in social/progressive terms is very different). A black princess is very good to have, and we needed one, but I think she came a little too late? In the time to be that relevant. Maybe if PATF had starred in the 90s she would've made a bigger impact... Outside of that the story is very kinda "meh", and while i love the characters and the animation, Ii can see why people prefer Tangled (everybody prefers CGI nowadays) And it just so happened that it came out at a time where Disney wasn't doing too good (their last hit was Lilo and Stitch, which came out in 2002, and PATF in 2009...7 years of "meh"-ish underwhelming movies for the general public, it isn't hard to think Disney was losing its charm), and it competed against Avatar at the same time... I think that would work for the movie's advantages is cut down all those swamp scenes tbh. They just dragged the movie down. As for why Tangled is popular...I think people just prefer CGI animation over 2D nowadays. People like characters like Flynn and Rapunzel, and they just like the "vague european fairy tale land" aesthetic of Tangled over the clearly USA/New Orleans look of PATF (I guess, I remember speaking with spanish Disney fans about PATF and they didn't like the idea of a fairy tale based on the USA for some reason, they found the concept too "Modern" and not magical enough, despite the core of Disney being 100% americana (Walt was such an american boy, you can even taste the americana feel in stuff like Mickey and Friends)). And while both films don't have the best songs, Tangled kinda wins with a better story. Less plot holes and more consistency. PATF has an interesting story but the ending is like divided in four parts and the swamp scenes drag way too much. The villain also doesn't appear much in the film, which may also sour some people (often the villain is the most memorable part of a Disney film). |
posted over a year ago
I've thought it over and kinda agree with what one poster said that PATF offers interesting new ideas but doesn't develop them (e.g.: Tiana's hardworking attitude and Familiar's voodoo). It's also fair to say Tangled is a little more consistent- the story follows only one theme (Rapunzel's character growth) and sticks with it, with everything else being minor or related to her. In PATF there are just way too many different plot points and themes and the movie wants to feature them all not caring if it comes out as quite unfocused (Tiana's restaurant, Charlotte's dream love, the thing with the frogs, Familiar's own plans...). The animation in both films are nice, but the music kinda sucks in the two of them song-wise. (the score in tangled is pretty good, but PATF takes too much from Toy Story to be memorable on its own). PATF has the more interesting villain but Tangled knows how to use its own better (connecting her much more to Rapunzel and such). the characters are hit or miss in both versions but Tangled at least focuses the attention on the important and keeps the sidekicks on the background (there's way too much Ray in PATF tbh). at the end in terms of "updating Disney" PATF has more risks compared to Tangled, which is overall safe, but PATF just throws these ideas at us but doesn't really do anything with them (hardworking princess, jazz soundtrack, spoiled love interest). Tangled might be safer and have less risks in themes of characters/plot points but it uses and develops them well.
scarletunicorn
posted over a year ago
And I still think the fact that it came out after Disney's shit years also influenced its box office reception tbh. Bolt and Chicken Little were just mediocre and people were just not gonna go to see Disney when they had Shrek and Pixar to watch. We hadn't have proper Disney fairytale movies for years, at the time PATF came out the genre was dead
scarletunicorn
posted over a year ago
And yes i see this film not being very appealing to people outside of the USA, the setting might turn them off
scarletunicorn
posted over a year ago
WinterSpirit809 said:
I think this happens every time a new movie comes out. Tangled was overshadowed by Frozen, and Wreck it Ralph by Big Hero 6. Not to say these aren't still good movies, but it's still pretty easy for them to get overshadowed. Each movie that comes out somehow overshadows the last, it rather is "This movie is so much better than that movie!" or it becomes so popular that people start to say "What the heck? That movie is so much better!" Unfortunately for the Princess and the Frog it was the first one. It seems like people are so worried about the new movies or so excited that the ones that were just the new ones get forgotten. But I agree, it's annoying. Trust me I always like unpopular things, but don't let it get you down:)
|
posted over a year ago
next question » |