Also my question, Joker.

Well, ask yourself this... Why does it seem ok to you that Angelus tried to kill Buffy and all of her friends? Why is ok that he killed Jenny Calender? The answer is because he didn't have a soul, right?
Well, Spike didn't have one either when he did those things. But while he was lacking a soul, he sure looks pretty good compared to Angelus as far as decency goes.

well said nose muffin! *aplauds*

Yeah but you all keep saying that Spike was in love with Buffy when he did those things...this is the root of my whole point.

What Angelus does is S2 is not Angel, but Spike is the same, his character doesn't change.

But his character does change... it's just a process. Like I've said, he doesn't take the same 90 years that Angel takes to brood over it, and before that the same that Angel takes to try and fit back into the vampire community.

And as far as loving Buffy goes, he did. It was a constant battle between man and demon, and the willpower of the man was so strong that it won out. Why do you think that Spike was so agonized when he realized that he did love her? The rape.. that was the demon.

Angelus had the same thing, part man - part demon. But with Angelus, the demon made a total bitch out of the man and silenced him completely.

What Spike did in Seeing Red isn't okay and Spuffy's don't condone that. Even he realizes that, and that's why he goes to get his soul. To make sure that his demon will never do something like that again.

Xander in the Pack tries to rape Buffy. People seem to see that as okay since he was possessed at the time, and yeah I'll give him that. But the hyena was acting on his sexual feelings for Buffy. I don't blame Xander for that one really, what I do blame him for was denying it. It was a cowardly act. Course, Buffy seemed content to let that go unmentioned, so maybe it didn't bother her that much.

It also isn't okay for the souled Buffy to beat Spike in an alley in Dead Things and leave him there for the sun to rise. And she doesn't even show remorse for her actions against him. When she cries to Tara later on in the episode she was focused on herself, not on what she might be doing to him. Even when she admits that she's using him she focused on herself, saying 'it's killing her.' She doesn't give any thoughts to his feelings.

Season six was dark and hurtful for them both, and they both had equal blame in it. Both are two people that are depressed and seeking solace that they just can't find in season six. Spike wants to love her, he wants to help her and Buffy just wants to find comfort in the one person she knows won't judge her. That they could both move past it, into a relationship that was both trusting and friendly is amazing and that's what makes me like them.

Spike sacrifices everything for her. He is truly her willing slave. He sacrifices himself, he sacrifices being the unrestricted vampire he loved being so much. He was willing to die for her in season five, where there had been no hope for him to get his crumb and he knew that. He stayed and took care of her sister, keeping his promise to a dead woman he didn't know he would ever see again or would ever know. And he died for her in season seven, believing himself that she doesn't love him but he does it anyway. There are not many people out there who will do those kinds of selfless acts he did for her believing that the other person will never love them.

Angel and Spike are treated like the elect and the damned by most people. No matter what Angel does, locking Darla and Drusilla in with a bunch of lawyers to eat, screwing with his friend's minds without their permission, his faults are passed over. While no matter how hard Spike tries to do good, glaring focus is put on him when he messes up. I like both but I wish more people would see them as their own individuals with different personalitys than compare them and have one come out wanting all the time. They are two different people.

I see the soul as a conscience, it makes it easier to distinguish between right or wrong, but can be ignored just like humans do all the time.

In Seeing Red I see a broken man. I don't think he even fully realized what he was doing until Buffy pushed him off. The devastation on his face when he realizes just what had been happening there, that's not the face of a soulless monster. It wasn't the first time between them where she said no, but she actually meant yes. How was he to know it was any different?

Buffy said a lot of things to him that she didn't mean. She tells him to move on, but when he does she blames him. How is that right?

As for sleeping with Anya, what was wrong with that. That was about comfort for two hurting people. I got more pissed at the fact the Buffy was hurt when he started moving on, when she told him to. It was hypocritical. Buffy and Spike were broken up, he wasn't cheating on her. Xander leaves Anya at the altar and then has the audacity to blame her for seeking comfort? Buffy and Xander were in the wrong there, not Anya and Spike.

How can you blame and condemn Spike for that, but not Angel for sleeping with Darla and trying to lose his soul in her? That always bothered me to, that Angel's perfect happiness was deflowering a seventeen year old virgin. Not her actually telling him I love you, no it was sex. And that perfect happiness to him wasn't when Conner was born either, nope taking the virginity of your girlfriend trumps the birth of your son, you know something that you thought you would never have in a million years.

So I'm assuming Angel would have called that the best night of his life. Sex with a seventeen year old virgin. On the otherhand Spike tells Buffy the best night of his life was when he was just holding her. I'm sorry, but that's a purer love to me. Yeah, Buffy may have loved Angel more, but Spike loved her more.

Plus, it wasn't only Darla was it? No, he sniffed after Kate Lockley in the first season, he fell in love with Cordelia, sleeps with Eve (granted that was under a spell), but then gets another girlfriend called Nina, who he also sleeps with. He also flirts with Gwen to make Cordelia jealous.

And lets not forget, he only decides to become good when he sees the pure and innocent Buffy sucking on a lollipop dressed like a valley girl. Fell in love with her soul? At that point she was more of a shallow ditz than Cordelia and Harmony together. In season one he doesn't try to stop her from dying, he says a prophecy can't be prevented and it could have been. He could have gone down and faced the Master himself, therefore saving the woman he loves. He didn't do that, instead he choose to stay in his apartment and brood. I bet you Spike never would have accepted Buffy dying. People scorn Spike for changing for love, but Angel did the same. It wasn't his soul that made him good, it was her.

Buffy and Angel idealized each other, they put each other up on a pedestal and never saw the real person inside. Cordelia knew Angel better than Buffy ever did, and she called him on his crap. Buffy never would have done that, she never would have told Angel when he was wrong. But Spike knew every aspect of Buffy, 'the best and the worst.' He saw her for what she was, not some pure and innocent goddess who's going to be his redemption. No, he knew exactly what she could be. She could be bitter, she could be judegmental, she could be selfish and she could be a bi***. She could also be the most loyal, selfless, loving, kind girl around, and Spike knew that.

I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone but that's how I see Bangel. I'm sure those who love the relationship see it differently, just like I see Spuffy differently than Bangel's do.

Nosemuffin - So you think that Spike would have changed at all without the chip implanted in his head? Of course he wouldn't which is why you can't compare Angelus to Spike. There is no battle of demon against man because neither of them are men...I think this is the glaring point that everyone seems to miss. When Angelus is around, the soul is gone...it's not trapped inside like Angelus wanting to break out. It is only Angel's soul that prevents him being Angelus.

Spike's a demon, plain and simple and that's why his conversion to Buffy's lovesick puppy was never at all believable. When he all of a sudden falls in love with her after his dream I was like ok...why? He has no soul to have those feelings.

NikaDawson - Does Spike not leave Buffy to die at the end of Becoming?? Yep.

There's absolutely no reason to be mad at Angel for sleeping with Darla, by that point he and Buffy have been broken up for a long-time and she's already slept with Parker and Riley...is the man not allowed to move on himself!?

If you see Buffy as the guilty party when Spike sleeps with Anya I would have to ask the question of how you would actually feel in the same situation?? If you've just broken up with a boyfriend and he goes and sleeps with one of your close friends, would you then blame yourself!? Of course not, you'd be angry at him for the betrayal, even if you're over somebody the thought of them being with a stranger is not easy to deal with nevermind a close friend.

Spike doesn't die for Buffy in S7 either, she's not the only person he's saving. Spike's sacrifice is his redemption for all the lives he took as a vampire.

As for Angel's moment of perfect happiness, it's not the sex. It's the moment he and Buffy become closer because she gives him something which nobody else will ever be able to take. That's why when he sleeps with Darla and Nina he doesn't lose his soul, perfect happiness is something impossible to achieve through sex unless he is deeply connected ot the other person. The point about Buffy being like Cordelia when he first sees her is fair...but that's just on the outside. Angel says he saw her heart. Just like Cordy she may have been a total bitch on the outside but underneath it was the heart to do what was right.

How can you say that Buffy would never have told Angel he was wrong!? She does so enough times on both shows...I'm not gonna quote them all here but there are more than a few.

The main point of my argument is continuously overlooked...Spike shouldn't have any internal torment in Seasons 5 or 6. He is a demon, there is no man trying to get out. He doesn't have a soul so the constant battle that Angel goes through is not something that Spike would suffer. He merely has a chip in his head that stops him attacking...but not feeding. So why would an animal, a vampire, a demon change it's modus operandi with no soul, remorse or guilt to force the change? It's the biggest flaw in the entire show and along with Dawn the start of it's demise. I'm sure people think I hate the character of Spike, I don't at all...Season 2 is my favourite season thanks in large part to him and Dru and Season 5 of Angel is fav on the other show and he plays a large part. It's the actions of the demon that bother me, it was just unconvincing.

Joker- Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree.

Without the chip in his head, would Spike have loved Buffy? Yes, I think he would have. The issue is whether or not he would have realized it, and the answer to that is NO. It is said that vampires can IN FACT love, and the Buffy/Spike attraction started from day 1, at least on his part. If he didn't have the chip, he may have killed her, or she may have killed him due to some bad behavior, or he may not have spent much time in Sunnydale at all, but it's a moot point, because he did have that chip.

And as a matter of fact, with Angel, yes the human side is there when he's Angelus, watching in horror at the things that Angelus does. That is made is clear in the later seasons of Angel. So the fact remains that Spike's demon is simply more human than Angelus. Think of it like ID and SuperEgo. The writers have said themselves that Spike is somewhat of an anomaly among vampires because he is still so much a man. I watched "Destiny" from Angel season 5 with the commentary, and the writers were talking about how in truth Spike probably deserves Shanshu much more because as a vampire he was so humane.

You don't need a soul to have feelings. Dru loved Spike, Darla loved Angelus, Spike loved Dru. Saying he has no feelings because he has no soul is contradicted by all the evidence in the show.

If Angelus and Angel are seperate people, and Angelus did all the bad things, then why does Angel need redeption? He's trying to say he didn't do anything right? So logically, he wouldn't need it, because he believes the demon is seperate from him. But they're not, they're the same. Angelus could love, and that's why he hated so much because he saw love as a weak emotion.

And again, the writers and the actors, and the evidence is there, that Spike fell in love with Buffy the moment he first saw her, but that he didn't accept and realize it because he was already in love with Drusilla.

And did you ever wonder why he's always coming back to the Hellmouth? He blames Buffy for his and Drusilla's break up, and he was right. Because Drusilla knew even before he realized it that Spike was in love with her. 'She's all around you, laughing.'

And when did Buffy ever confront Angel about all the killing he did as Angelus? When did she confront him about killing Jenny Calender? That relationship was over from the moment he became Angelus and everyone knew that.

Buffy would never have accepted that part of him. Angel would never have accepted the dark part of Buffy. And if you can't accept every part of a person, than you can't be in love with them.

Okay, you've going to be mad at Spike for sleeping with Anya, when he and Buffy are broken up? But you say you can't be mad at Angel for sleeping with Darla because they were broken up longer and the man's allowed to move on? That makes no sense. It's a double standard and hypocritical. If you say that Angel's allowed to move on, then logically what most people would get out of that was that you want him to move on to someone else, like he did with Cordelia.

And no, I wouldn't be happy if my ex-boyfriend where having sex with someone else after I broke up with him. But I wouldn't be mad at him either, it's his right, I have no say anymore.

And he's not dying to save the world, he's doing it for her. Everything he does, he does it for her. So she can live.

And again, how is her not telling him I love you becoming closer? No, it's sex. That's not becoming closer to me. Again, a man turned at twenty seven has sex with a seventeen year old girl. Legally, he could go to jail for that.

Again, you're treating them like the elect and the damned. Your implying that everything Angel does is right and everything Spike does is wrong, when it isn't.

Spike leaves her in becoming and Lover's Walk because he hasn't realized yet that he loves her. He leaves her in Seeing Red to become a better man for her. But he always came back, which is something Angel never did until he saw someone else was poking around a girl he had already gotten over.

When was Angel leaving her ever for her? He leaves her in season three, one cause Joyce scares him off, and to because he's making descisions for her like he does everyone else. He wants her to have a normal life. She didn't care about that. She'll never have a normal life, she's the slayer and the supernatural is in her blood. She can't walk away from it anymore than he can.

In I Will Remember You, I don't find that about her either. All that stuff he sprouted off to the powers meant little to me because of his actions after. He became a vampire again to protect her, to keep her from dying he says? If that was it he would have gone back to Sunnydale with her and helped her with Glory. But he didn't and she died anyway. Doesn't match up.

He sacrifices more for Darla than he ever did for Buffy in season two. He was willing to die for her when he took the trials. In season one with Buffy he wasn't even willing to go up against the Master with her.

But I hope we can agree to disagree here because I'm sure we'll never see eye to eye.

"...he (Spike) probably fell in love with Buffy when he first saw her, but didn't admit it to himself because he was already in love with Dru..." -James Marsters, 2002

"Joss doesn't like to tell us--with good reason," says Sarah, who admits she'd be the first to spill. OK, so Sarah won't dish love details, but she did reveal her fantasy guy: Spike! "When I mentioned the possibility of Spike and Buffy," says Sarah, "Joss was like, 'No more vampires!'" -SMG (Jan 2000, Teen Magazine)

"The thing about Buffy and Spike is they understand each other on a level that nobody else understands her. They've both lived a hundred lives and I think there's a connection there that we will see evolve over the next couple of years where she realizes that he really is someone that she can trust, someone that's a companion to her and someone that really understands her unlike anybody else." -Sarah Michelle Gellar

"In a lot of ways, Buffy's relationship with Spike is the most normal relationship she has ever had. There are no secrets between them. When she first met Angel, he kept his vampire identity a secret. And it wasn't until it was too late that she found out all the details of the spell. Parker posed as a nice guy, but was just looking for another notch on his bed post. Riley turned out to be part of an experiment and half brother to a cyborg monster. Each of these lovers turned into something Buffy definitely did not want. But Spike is what he appears to be. Buffy knows all his failings and if he has any surprises, they are positive ones. It's interesting that this is the hardest relationship for Buffy to commit to while at the same time being the most honest and open of her relationships (she deceives her friends, but she and Spike do not deceive each other)." [That was said by a writer I just can't remember which one].

Spike is the person in her life right now..... What I basically told [James and Sarah] was, 'Play the romance, be proud of him, love him when you say you love him, love her when you say she doesn't love you. Forget about the crumbling world, for that period of time it doesn't exist.' -Joss Whedon, season 7 DVDs, commentary on Chosen

As I've said before, yes Buffy was in love with Angel. A part of her always will be, but she moved on. Was she in love with Spike. I don't know. Did she love him, yes.

I like them because they're equals, because they understand one another. Because they're not perfect together or meant to be.

And now I'm going to respectfully back out of this forum before I start to tear my hair out in frustration.

LOL, Nika. You're right, if the person I loved treated me like that, then dumped me.. the first thing i would do is probably go get drunk and then get laid.

The difference between Angel sleeping with Darla and Spike sleeping with Anya is time. It's 2yrs since Angel and Buffy broke up when he does that, with Spike it's a matter of days (if more than one). Also Darla is not one of Buffy's close circle of friends, whereas Anya is.

Nika - I find it amusing how you say I compare them as the elect and the damned when you then continue to do the same thing.

Angelus and Angel are seperate but Angel still remembers everything that Angelus did, that's why he's constantly seeking redemption, because people were killed by his own hand - whether he's behind the wheel or not.

I stand by what I said about Angel's moment of 'perfect' happiness. The night Spike has with Buffy is like a hundreds of nights that Angel has spent with her, just laid watching her sleep with no sexual motive involved. It may well be the most amazing moment of Spike's life...but he's never, ever had a night like that before. Angel's irish as well, you can't go to jail for having consentual sex with someone over the age of 16 in this part of the world so there's my reasoning behind that!

My argument isn't really based on the relationships though, that's just what I always seem to get dragged into. I just never found it convincing after everything that was done and said over the previous years of the show. Demons don't love, it's as simple as that. Spike and Dru aren't in love, they share affection. As I've said before if you believe that any of the vampires were in love with one another then just watch 'Destiny' and 'The Girl In Question', you'll see Angelus sleeping with Dru and then discover that both Dru and Darla slept with immortal, all when they are supposedly in love with someone else.

I've heard the comments from writers about Spike being some sort of anamoly because he was more humane and I honestly just thought it was cheap and an easy way of painting over all previous lore that had been written. The show goes downhill from Season 4 but even more rapidly so in Season 5. There are obviously stand-out episodes such as Hush and OMWF that draw well-deserved critical acclaim but on the whole it just isn't what it previously was and that's represented in the fact that it was dropped from the WB at the end of Season 5.

As for my feelings on Angel leaving and stuff, there's a whole soapbox on that.

Love at first sight is unbelievable enough, but add to that the fact she's 16, completely shallow and vapid, and sucking on a lollipop, and it's just ridiculous.

You can love someone and sleep with someone else, that applies to every argument you contradict it in.

Well, first of all, a big round of applause for Nika's articulate argument. Sorry, Joker, but yours has more than a few flaws-- and not just because I'm a Spuffy fan either. The show most definitely did not go 'downhill' from Season 4. That is a preposterous thought! Were you only watching the show for Bangel or what? Seasons 4 through 7 were absolutely brilliant, with some of the most moving developments I've ever seen in a television series.

But, to address your arguments one at a time... Nika and nosemuffin have covered a lot, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

You claim that vampires can't love, an argument that was addressed in Season 5's episode 'Crush':

Spike: You can't tell me that there isn't anything there between you and me. I know you feel something.
Buffy: It's called revulsion. And whatever you think you're feeling it's not love. You can't love without a soul.
Drusilla: Oh, we can, you know. We can love quite well... if not wisely.


And I know your reply might be something along the lines of 'just because they -say- they can...', but come on. That's like saying 'just because the writers wrote that they did...' And your argument that you can't sleep with someone when you love someone else, well, that's just plain silly. Humans do that all the time. It's called lust. Vampires are creatures of limited inhibitions who live in the moment, just like drunk humans who cheat on their lovers. They're flawed creatures, but that certainly doesn't mean they can't love.

To address your original concern over Spike attempting to rape Buffy, I honestly think that Spike did it because he didn't know how to deal with being in love. When he was human, he was walked over by Cecile, and even he admitted in End of Days, that he'd never been close to anyone before:

"Yeah, I hear you say it, but... I've lived for sodding ever, Buffy. I've done everything. I've done things with you I can't spell, but I've never been close to anyone, least of all you, until last night. All I did was hold you, watch you sleep, and it was the best night of my life. So, yeah, I'm terrified."

My point with that being, that he simply didn't know how to deal with being a demon and being in love. The two don't mesh very well and Spike's a messed up guy as it is. Not that is makes it okay, because it isn't, not in the least. But at least I can understand why, and in understanding, I can forgive.

Also, you claim that the writers calling Spike an anomaly because he is more humane "cheap" and "an easy way of painting over all previous lore". I strongly disagree. Some vampires hold on to their humanity more than others, just as some humans act less human than others. The night Spike was changed into a vampire, his first concern was his mother's health and changing her into a vampire. From the get-go he was still attached to his humanity and his human concerns. He spent so many years attempting to get past that, but it was all a facade, and his more human side was brought out by his emerging feelings for Buffy. When he was chip-i-fied, he didn't have violence as a way to block those ties to his humanity and so they re-emerged.

Other vampires have shown such ties to their humanity as well, such as Holden Webster in Season 7's Conversations With Dead People. How is it 'cheap' to have anomalies? Isn't Buffy an anomaly? What about Angel, and Anya, and so many other characters? BtVS's cast is chock full of anomalies that could be written off as 'cheap'. -Could- be, if they weren't backed up by the story, which in Spike's case they certainly are.

You also claim that Spike wouldn't have changed without the chip in his head. While this point could be argued in your favour, I would like to point out that pre-chip, Spike showed signs of being into Buffy. In the season 3 episode 'Who Are You?' when Buffy and Faith switched bodies and Faith came onto Spike, you could see that Spike was into it, and into Buffy [Joss gleefully notes this in his commentary of the episode]. The sexual tension was there long before Spike gets his chip, and as Nika mentioned, even Druscilla noticed it before Spike did ["She's all around you, laughing."].

As to the whole Buffy-Angel relationship, well, I always found it creepy that a twenty-six year old would be stalking a high school freshman. He claims he fell in love with her soul, but come on, that's like falling in love with Dawn's soul during her temper-tantrum years. Pathetic and disturbing. Angel's secretly a lecher. :D

Anyway, I know there is more to discuss, but my eyes are starting to cross so I'll come back to this later. Good debate, folks.

Spike's backstory as an 'anamoly' is written into the show after the writers decided that was the way they had to go. I realise that in the Buffy 'timeline', Spike being sired by Dru happens a long, long time ago but in reality that was written much, much later...to add to this whole, Spike hanging onto his humanity thing.

'Who Are You' was in Season 4 and Spike does have the chip in his head...hence him saying something along the lines of

"Once I get this thing outta my head, you and me are gonna have a talk" or summat. So that would be major flaw in your case there.

As for Dru saying that vampires can love...this is exactly my point. Dru thinks it, Spike thinks it but they actually can't. Point being in Angel's speech to Darla in the ep 'Darla' I think over on Angel. This is completely off the top of my head but it's something like:

A - "You showed me things I'd never seen, you spun my head...but I didn't love you."

D - "There was a time when you would've said that I was the definition of bliss"

"You never made me happy"

"...but that cheerleader did?"

"You're getting awfully bent outta shape over this Darla, I didn't love you because I didn't have a soul."

Now before somebody says, "yeah but Spike isn't Angel yada, yada, yada", I will just say the whole basis of my argument is not who loved who more but the fact that I never found Spuffy believable, it's that simple. That all boils down to the fact that vampires are evil demons. Now you ladies do like to look for the Anne Rice and romanticsim in all this but it's stated many times early on that there is no human left in vampires once they are turned...which makes Angel as the only vampire with a soul unique, until Spike gets his obviously.

I love the character of Spike, I think a lot of you think I don't but I just didn't like where they went with it. As for saying that Buffy didn't go downhill after Season 3...look at the eps, there are a lot more bad episodes in the later years than there are in the early ones and early on you've got all the best characters together, Giles is always there, Oz, Cordy, Jenny Calender, The Master, Spike & Dru, Angelus, The Mayor, Faith. Hell, in Season 6 I could pick 19 different episodes as the worst of the entire series I think. Season 7 (2nd half after Faith returns anyways) I really enjoyed though, no complaining on my part there.

And sure, people do sleep with other people when they're in love...but not without the guilt really, which is what happens with Angelus/Dru/Darla/Immortal.

wow...i'm a bangel fan... *runs to exit*

"And sure, people do sleep with other people when they're in love...but not without the guilt really"

At last, you can admit it! So go ahead and apply to that the whole Anya and Spike situation that started this whole argument. They both felt guilt, that was fairly obvious. Argument solved.

That doesn't mean that Spike should automatically be forgiven for it though, I'm pretty sure I never said that. I did something along those lines a long, long time ago and you know what? Ex-fiance still doesn;t speak to me.

After everything that happened after Entropy, I think forgiving Spike for THAT was the least of Buffy's worries. IF she ever did forgive him, it would have been sometime during season 7, when he had done so much to be seen as worthy in her eyes.

well, all the comments about Angel having sex with a 17 year old virgin. well, i seem to recall Angel refusing to have sex with her.
"Buffy, maybe we shouldn't..."
"Don't talk, just kiss me..."

Now, you can't tell me that he made her have sex. She wanted it to happen. I rest my case.

*runs out the door*

Most of the comments are actually directed at the fashion in which he "fell in love" with her rather than the sex. I don't think that any Spuffy fans really care about the sex, because it led to a brilliant story and it wasn't as if they weren't an important part of each others' lives at that point. The issue was have is what this "true love" is based on. A creepy old vampire drooling over a 16 year old girl with a lollipop in her mouth, and BAM, true love.

He didnt love her because she was innocent. he loved her because he saw her heart, and was afraid she would get hurt, so he helped her. and the sex comment i made above was meant to clarify that Buffy was not forced to have sex with Angel. She wanted it to happen...

Wow, that was a read! :) I am using a smilie face to hopefully disarm some of the growing hostilities. I respect both relationships and believe they both had a time.

That said I would like to agree with the points made by Nika and Nosemuffin. I want to be able to agree with the entire love at first sight thing. Hell, I've had that. Turned out to be lust. I am completely ok with the development of their relationship and the sex. I think it was time for it, it made sense to me. It was a relationship that failed due to circumstance and destiny.

I may anger some of my fellow Spuffy fans but I also believe that Angel's moment of happiness was more in the having of her completely and I don't mean in a sexual tense. They had their "I love you"s, had sex, and fell asleep together. I am willing to go with that and take out some of the factors mentioned above in my stance.

Personally, I believe that Spike will always be a better fit for Buffy based on expectations. Angel wants Buffy for her "light" for the goodness that is her. Spike on the other hand accepts her darkness, even after she emerges from the damper of season six (which I believe is a splendid season), he still felt for her. Angel is not as understanding of Buffy when she is tinted by anything but moral goodness.

As far as the attempted rape, I will agree with the Spuffy people above. I believe that it was a desperate act of a man who didn't know which was way up and while there is no excuse for it at all, he did work to make amends. It isn't a blindside, more of an understanding that our character did something horrible and that while he can't just walk away from it he can try to become better than he was before.

As far as Anya, it was a combo. Both are demons (At one point) who changed, tried to fit into what was expected and desired and they are both left alone. It's solace. The need to feel somebody else, to not feel alone and take comfort in another. While we may not burn him for it we don't look upon it as a fine hour. It is simply two people trying to buy some time where they don't ache as much as they did a moment ago.

As far as the ability to love, I have always felt that was established by the Judge, saying that Spike and Dru stunk of humanity because of their feelings. Angelus on the other hand, is "clean". This also establishes the differences between the two to me. Spike is separated from Angelus when he can have emotions and Angelus fails to "suffer" from them. Going further you can point out that Angelus wants to kill her in part because she made him feel. This could be believed to be part of Angel dwells in Angelus.

I will refrain from continuing because most of what I will say has been said, but I would like to say that everyone has done an excellent job at stating their thoughts.

I want to fight really hard for bangel in this, but this whole thing is making me tired.

Vampires with no soul can love (of course not in a healthy way), in Heartthrob 3 x 01 on Angel show, it´s about James and Elizabeth, two vampires who love each other. So yes i think Spike with no soul loved Buffy, that´s the reason why after Seeing Red he goes for his soul.

Now, after Angel gets his soul, he keeps feeding on human blood (show up on Angel show), he murders criminals, cause they´re bad is this acceptabe?. Later on Season 2, he lets Darla and Drusilla murder the humans lawyers from W&H, again cause they´re bad is this acceptable?

Like i´ve said in other post, Angel knows Buffy when she´s 15 years old in L.A (this will be reveal in season 2), the scene: she´s eating a candy like a “Lolita”, Spy on her, follow her to Sunnydale, he knows exactly where to find her, romantic? mysterious? I could say creepy, an obsession, he´s a stalker and he has a soul.

Angel´s behavior in season 2 was horrible. He murders Jenny, feeds on human blood again, has sex with Drusilla, wants destroy the world, tortures Giles, tortures Buffy in a psychological way (Willow´s fishes, Joyce), and on season 3 she forgives him like nothing, and many fans don´t seem to have a problem with this, because he was Angelous (like all the damage can simply be erase).